getting a little tired of the crack/meth heads

[Yeah_Baby]

What I wouldn't do is recreate this Star Trek episode.

https://podwraithsds9pod.castos.com/...se-part-i-ii34

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I said it in the Vancouver thread like 6 times and it’s already been mentioned here but the solution, as we wring our hands and bemoan “why is there no solution to this?!” Is just, like, ####ing go do what the one jurisdiction that has fixed the problem or shown huge improvement has done.

We have literally an example of a solution. And yet, we all look at each other wondering what to do. It’s like standing in a burning house and one guy just opens a door and walks out and we’re like BUT WHAT DO WE DOOOOOO?

Just go ####ing do what Portugal did. Simple.

Decriminalization is already a de-facto fact. But the mandatory detox/treatment part of that solution wouldn't fly in Canada. This problem will have to get way worse before there is public support for that.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Part of the issue is that these instances of disruption, violence and crime disproportionately affect people in low income areas. This gives policy makers very little incentive to actually solve the problems. Just so long as they keep the vagrants out of the high income neighborhoods.

@Sliver

I think he just called Lake Bonavista a low income area.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Decriminalization is already a de-facto fact. But the mandatory detox/treatment part of that solution wouldn't fly in Canada. This problem will have to get way worse before there is public support for that.

The problem with something being de-facto is it can be applied and not applied similarly at will. And even if something doesn't go before the courts that doesn't mean that there isn't front line harassment in the system.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by you&me

@Sliver

I think he just called Lake Bonavista a low income area.

For the record, I don't want him banned for such an egregious comment, but I'm not opposed to some sort of punishment.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Sliver

For the record, I don't want him banned for such an egregious comment, but I'm not opposed to some sort of punishment.

Maybe caning?

[RobotTalk]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Decriminalization is already a de-facto fact. But the mandatory detox/treatment part of that solution wouldn't fly in Canada. This problem will have to get way worse before there is public support for that.

I'm not so sure about that at all. Vancouver, a naturally far more left wing city than Calgary, that's long embraced a decriminalized/no enforcement approach to drug use recently elected a law and order mayor because of the social disorder caused by crackheads.

I was surprised that in my Calgary workplace, which I'd characterize as fairly left leaning but not-activisty, people were openly expressing their concern about the amount of crime on public transit and how unsafe they felt walking the streets around our Beltline office.

People respond to their environment and people, of all political stripes, are finding that the current status quo isn't working and is causing things to become worse.

I'm optimistic that, eventually, we'll find a solution similar to the actual Portuguese model, that involves decriminalization of drugs but compulsory treatment (including detainment in a treatment facility if necessary) for those drug users causing the vast majority of the problems. Most drug users never commit crimes, don't end up homeless, and definitely don't randomly attack people so we should target those that do. Guaranteed the police know exactly which crackheads are harmful and which homeless people are just down on their luck.

More controversially, for drug use related to mental health disorders, I'm of the view that we need to look at bringing back mental hospitals for compulsory in patient treatment when someones mental health issues create societal problems. You can trace a direct line to the problems on Vancouver's DTES spiking shortly after the closure of Riverview Mental Hospital in 2000. The Economist took a good look at how NYC and LA are looking at the in-patient model for their homeless because of mental health problems populations I'd recommend reading (sorry, it's paywalled).

https://www.economist.com/united-sta...ll-ever-humane

[Matata]

The trouble with every major city in NA becoming an opioid suicide mill, is that you're now relying on the people that caused the problem to solve it: Pharma lobbyists & sales reps, Real Estate regulators, crooked government. Hopefully these guys can have private reformations, decide they have enough money and then they can start working on these problems in earnest *fingers crossed*

[flamesfever]

The problem, as I see it, is we are continually using simple solutions to solve complex problems, and creating bigger problems along the way. Each homeless person has his own story, and the same goes for the mentally ill and the addicted. I agree with Pepsi and Coffee that the solution has to be twofold i.e. using the carrot and the stick. If we don't realize and act on that, I think there will be no solution and things will get progressively worse.

Having been around longer than most of you, I have seen what a lack of discipline in society does to people. I believe it starts in the schools. My wife taught grade two for almost 20 years. She started with a Principal that put the fear of the Lord in kids that misbehaved, and there was order and a lot of respect for staff and community. Then came along a Principal that took the kids that misbehaved and fed them chocolate cake. It wasn't long before the kids were throwing rocks at the passing cars. Today we are witnessing things like swarming of kids doing harm to others.

My son says he sees addicted people every day on the LRT. If we want people to use the LRT, this has to stop. We need to find some way to put the fear into people that misbehaving on the LRT has consequences.

As for dealing with the homeless/mentally ill/addicted in general, I tend to believe in the compassionate approach, and I don't believe there is any single solution. As the problem will always be with us to some degree, IMO we just have to do the best we can with the funds and resources we have available. Being able to do more would help if we had more money, but that would entail higher taxes, and maximizing the development of our resources.

just my opinion

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

The problem, as I see it, is we are continually using simple solutions to solve complex problems, and creating bigger problems along the way. Each homeless person has his own story, and the same goes for the mentally ill and the addicted. I agree with Pepsi and Coffee that the solution has to be twofold i.e. using the carrot and the stick. If we don't realize and act on that, I think there will be no solution and things will get progressively worse.

Having been around longer than most of you, I have seen what a lack of discipline in society does to people. I believe it starts in the schools. My wife taught grade two for almost 20 years. She started with a Principal that put the fear of the Lord in kids that misbehaved, and there was order and a lot of respect for staff and community. Then came along a Principal that took the kids that misbehaved and fed them chocolate cake. It wasn't long before the kids were throwing rocks at the passing cars. Today we are witnessing things like swarming of kids doing harm to others.

My son says he sees addicted people every day on the LRT. If we want people to use the LRT, this has to stop. We need to find some way to put the fear into people that misbehaving on the LRT has consequences.

As for dealing with the homeless/mentally ill/addicted in general, I tend to believe in the compassionate approach, and I don't believe there is any single solution. As the problem will always be with us to some degree, IMO we just have to do the best we can with the funds and resources we have available. Being able to do more would help if we had more money, but that would entail higher taxes, and maximizing the development of our resources.

just my opinion

Did you just compared folks experiencing homelessness and living with addiction to 7 year olds?

[Ozy_Flame]

It really sucks people are resorting immediately to the carrots or sticks argument, like there is only a dichotomy to live by. Nurture OR Fear? Why not both?

Carrots have proven to work in helping mitigate addictions and mental health. Safe consumption sites, street response teams, community training in naloxone application, addiction counselling, youth mental health programs . . . . All of these are effective and the science continues to evolve on how best to treat addictions.

But the stick is also effective in having people comply with laws that impact society.

I think most reasonable people would agreed a carrot/stick program is probably the right approach, but most definitely the carrots need to be applied first. Then it's an escalation and response program if such carrots don't work.

Put people through the proper programs, give them the opportunity to define their own journey through rehabilitation. Have rules in place that augment that journey, and have "last resort" sticks in the event none of that works. Modify the program accordingly as the results come in, and as patterns of rehabilitation develop over time.

Carrots before sticks. That shows compassion, option, and a path forward.

This "one or the other" approach is a bad narrative. It doesn't have to be that way.

[Yeah_Baby]

are there no workhouses? Prisons?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

are there no workhouses? Prisons?

Why would you want addicts and the severely mentally ill to go to prison? That won't help anything.

I think institutions with mental health and addiction treatment would be much more productive. More expensive? Maybe, but maybe it would pay off to invest in these people in the long term.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Why would you want addicts and the severely mentally ill to go to prison? That won't help anything.

I think institutions with mental health and addiction treatment would be much more productive. More expensive? Maybe, but maybe it would pay off to invest in these people in the long term.

I don't. I thought quoting Scrooge was self-explanatory green text.


I also find it frustrating when folks talk about safe use sites as only belonging in the core. They should be everywhere. Folks OD at home all the time, but because it's less visible than folks who use drugs that are unhoused folks care less.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

I don't. I thought quoting Scrooge was self-explanatory green text.

I also find it frustrating when folks talk about safe use sites as only belonging in the core. They should be everywhere. Folks OD at home all the time, but because it's less visible than folks who use drugs that are unhoused folks care less.

Scrooge? Like Ebenezer Scrooge? A specific quote from the novella that is 180 years old? No, I missed that, sorry.

[CroFlames]

One of my best friends passed away last year from OD. Was an awesome guy with all sorts of opportunity ahead of him and just started going down a path one day a few years ago.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but all these 'crackwhores' and 'meth heads' were somebody's son, daughter, partner or best friend at some point.

The whole ####ing thing is a human tragedy.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Scrooge? Like Ebenezer Scrooge? A specific quote from the novella that is 180 years old? No, I missed that, sorry.

yes, the obscure novella that hasn't been endlessly adapted to stage and screen several times.

If you want a personal solution, why don't you move to one of your 'parasitic communities' which drug use is high by you see it less.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

any effective solution will require people to be detained in some fashion and removed from these places when conducting this behavior whether that be the police, mental health personnel, addictions treatment personnel . . . whoever. There's no end game solution to these problems that don't have this level of intervention at the very end of the flow chart regardless of how many offshoots and steps we take between.

For the aggressive/crime-committing ones, this is absolutely the only solution. Get them directly off the streets/LRT stations/etc and get them into facilities where they can get the help they need (mental health, detox, etc). Sooner or later society will realize this is what needs to happen... hopefully it's sooner rather than later. Taxes will need to go way up to pay for it, but people will have to decide would you rather pay more taxes to actually deal with the problem in a proper way, or would you rather see the problem continue to get worse?

For addicts who aren't committing crimes, the way to help them is to substantially increase affordable housing (perhaps including temporarily free housing) and availability to mental health services. Again, massively expensive, and only happens if society is willing to tolerate big tax increases. I'm in favor of it, but worry that our society won't be anytime soon.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

yes, the obscure novella that hasn't been endlessly adapted to stage and screen several times.

If you want a personal solution, why don't you move to one of your 'parasitic communities' which drug use is high by you see it less.

IDK, maybe just lurk the thread for a bit? Not to be a jerk, but your contributions on this topic are less than useless. Just snappy little judgements on anybody who has an idea that moves beyond giving junkies more drugs and hugging it out with the mentally ill.

Those of us who actually want to progress and help solve this problem are looking for practical solutions. You're just ixnaying anything anybody says, but you're not being funny, clever or contributive, so I just don't really get what you're doing here.

[JohnnyB]

When it comes to addicts themselves, I fully support approaches that come out of compassion and empathy, with resources for social, health and housing services that help people get back to lives of dignity. Pepsifree has made good comments on this, and the Portuguese model that has been repeatedly raised is also something I would support. I don't really see punishing addicts for being addicts as making any sense.

When it comes to those trafficking the kinds of drugs that destroy people's lives in these ways, I am very open to severe punishment. I don't so much mean the street-level dealers, but the actual traffickers knowledgably engaging in the business of addiction at scale. I would seriously consider capital punishment for traffickers of things like the synthetic opiates that have people dying on the street daily in the DTES. They are worse than the most prolific serial killers. For street-level drug dealers selling stuff like these synthetic opiates, I would also consider corporal punishment such as caning in addition to rehabilitation.