What would rebuilding look like?

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

We have been told the Flames have never done this but then what was 2013-2016? The Flames rebuilt from the Iginal Kipper days around Gaudreau/Monahan/Bennett/Tkachuk/Gio/Backlund/Brodie/Hamilton. They then pivoted from Hamilton to Lindholm/Hanifin and that deal was key to them winning the division in 19 and 22.

Their retool on the fly last year was forced out of necessity and while people are kicking them now this team is not nearly as bad as some will say and it is more like 2 key players are struggling or we would be firmly in first place right now.

Teams have a range in which they can play. The question is, where does this season lie in the flames range. Is this the worst possible case, the average or them maxed out? I think it's safe to say this is not them maxed out, which is good news. But given the age of the core this could potentially be their average going forward, which isn't terrible as it would mean we have a chance if playoffs over the next few seasons.

Yeah they did do a rebuild. I think the argument against it is that they waited too long to go into it and rushed out of it so it ended up half baked. In those 4 years they only had 5 firsts and 6 seconds (which is low for a rebuilding era). I understand that they parlayed some picks into doggie but it's still not alot for a rebuilding team.

I do think there is a valid argument that the flames should of rebuilt considering most of that old core is now gone, epscially after your two superstars leave at the same time
I think there is a second off ramp coming up next season with the amount of contracts coming up. It will be very interesting to see how the flames approach it. Do you sign more guys like lindholm, tanev and backlund to big long term contracts late into their 30s? Or do you try and reset the window and recoup younger assets.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by traptor

What is your definition on tanking though?

This is different from what the hawks are doing which is literally selling off everything including young players to intentionally suck.

This is tanking.

Selling off your aging players when you know your chances at the playoffs is slim to none and you don't see things getting much better the next season is just rebuilding.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Inferno

This is tanking.

Selling off your aging players when you know your chances at the playoffs is slim to none and you don't see things getting much better the next season is just rebuilding.

So do most people see a difference between tanking and rebuilding?

I tend to think that there is.

[tkflames]

My perception of teams that succeed at rebuilding into a cup winner have two layers (two generations) of players.

Tampa Bay: Stamkos / Vasilevsky, Hedman etc.
Colorado: McKinnon, Landeskog / Makar, Raantanen
LA: Richards, Carter / Doughty, Quick

Basically you want a strong generation, have some minot success, dump another round of aging players, suck again and then have a power house.

In the flames scenario, the best case would have been:Tkachuk, Benny (ignoring that he was awful pre florida), lindholm, Andersson, Hanifin (or Chychurn)...tank hard for Wolf, Bedard and 2024, then start really winning in 2025.

That history didn't happen (not all the teams fault)...the way I look at it now is that the Flames would need to basically build those two layers...ie an 8 year rebuild with 2 solid layers of sell-offs and tanks.

Not sure that's anyone's appetite in the organization...and there could be some success similar to last time if you just put pedal to the medal after layer 1, but not a powerhouse calibre team...

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by traptor

What is your definition on tanking though? Is it selling off aging players for futures and not signing big UFAs to long term contracts considered tanking? This will probabky cause your team to drop i standings but every successful team has gone through periods of doing this and there is a good argument to be made that the flames should take a step back to take two steps forward.

This is different from what the hawks are doing which is literally selling off everything including young players to intentionally suck.

I think what's really being argued about here is the "firesale" approach vs. tanking organically.

Every team that is out of the playoff picture in a given year tries to re-sign pending UFAs who they can't/don't want to re-sign. And this may expand to players with term, if the right return is there. But the key detail is position in standings and general team trajectory.

Can anyone actually point to a team on the bubble choosing to sell off players with term?

[traptor]

Originally Posted by tkflames

My perception of teams that succeed at rebuilding into a cup winner have two layers (two generations) of players.

Tampa Bay: Stamkos / Vasilevsky, Hedman etc.
Colorado: McKinnon, Landeskog / Makar, Raantanen
LA: Richards, Carter / Doughty, Quick

Basically you want a strong generation, have some minot success, dump another round of aging players, suck again and then have a power house.

In the flames scenario, the best case would have been:Tkachuk, Benny (ignoring that he was awful pre florida), lindholm, Andersson, Hanifin (or Chychurn)...tank hard for Wolf, Bedard and 2024, then start really winning in 2025.

That history didn't happen (not all the teams fault)...the way I look at it now is that the Flames would need to basically build those two layers...ie an 8 year rebuild with 2 solid layers of sell-offs and tanks.

Not sure that's anyone's appetite in the organization...and there could be some success similar to last time if you just put pedal to the medal after layer 1, but not a powerhouse calibre team...

Yeah I agree. It would of been the perfect time to rebuild imo. One of the strongest drafts if the decade. Go into the future with a strong young D core in hanifin, Andersson, kylington and zadorov. Three goes with alot of potential in vladar, wolf and sergeev. Already the beginning of a strong young forward core with dube, zary, pelletier and zary. Keep a couple vets to help establish the culture. Pick up 4 or 5 high picks/ prospects and have a solid shot at bedard. Wouldn't of had any huge anchor long term contracts.

Doesn't really get much better and probably wouldn't of took too long to turn it around again

[iamca]

I think we have completely underutilized and undervalued our AHL players and that sits directly on Sutter and his penchant for veteran players.

I don’t think he’s your guy in a rebuild, but prove me wrong by forcing it upon Sutter for the duration of his contract, another 2 seasons.

Maybe a strong dose of youth and inexperienced players might be a good combination with Sutter or he mutually agrees with the organization to move on at that point and call it a career?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by traptor

So do most people see a difference between tanking and rebuilding?

I tend to think that there is.

I think the term gets confused by some but most people have a good idea on the difference.

[Poe969]

You tank to get the good picks and rebuild with the players you picked and become good.

Tank to do bad
Rebuild to become good.

[Classic_Sniper]

[QUOTE=gamesaver;8602568]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

But I agree with you. In cap era you have to suck for a while to rebuild. Fairweather fans are scared of losses so they are stucked with a mediocre team tripping over itself over and over again and call it "not losing". Also never winning anything.

Yeah, this is a good way to ensure you're trapped in mediocrity for an indefinite period of time. The Flames have pretty much driven on the "always be competitive" road and it's taken us exactly where we deserve to be, mediocre.

In the last rendition of the Flames core, we had great foundational pieces like a Giordano-Brodie pairing and Gaudreau, so maybe the Flames didn't need to rebuild that long. But I always think about how good the Flames could've been if we only drafted a Mackinnon instead of a Monahan or a Draisaitl instead of a Bennett and to get these types of building blocks, generally, you have to rebuild and if you do it for long enough, you're likely to pick up players of this caliber at some point along the way like a lot of recent Stanley Cup champions.

[The Fisher Account]

The only selling Brad is doing at the trade deadline is his house in Calgary.

[madmike]

Better than what’s on the ice now.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Rebuilding would start with house cleaning. Everyone would be toast and a new group would be brought in with a new plan. That's ownership's MO.

[Drunk Uncle]

I think everyone in the organization from GM to coach is capable of navigating a successful rebuild.

Personally, if Huberdeau cannot emerge as a star for this team next year, it is 100% time to rebuild starting at the TDL by moving out expiring contracts. That means you have to commit to being a bottom feeder until you draft superstar talent both on D and F (assuming Wolf is your G). That could take 5 years, it could take 10 years. The key is you have to stay low until you have drafted that talent.

Let's cross our fingers that when the time comes the drafts are deep and plentiful.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

We have been told the Flames have never done this but then what was 2013-2016? The Flames rebuilt from the Iginal Kipper days around Gaudreau/Monahan/Bennett/Tkachuk/Gio/Backlund/Brodie/Hamilton. They then pivoted from Hamilton to Lindholm/Hanifin and that deal was key to them winning the division in 19 and 22.

Their retool on the fly last year was forced out of necessity and while people are kicking them now this team is not nearly as bad as some will say and it is more like 2 key players are struggling or we would be firmly in first place right now.

They didn't tank though. Gaudreau, Gio, Backlund, Brodie were all Flames before the rebuild. They had three bad seasons, but had they tanked odds are good they would have had one 1OA in that timeframe. And many folks here argue they should have done exactly that.

For example, if they had tanked and won the lottery in 2014 would they have drafted Ekblad? How much better would their fortunes be right now? I don't think it would make much difference.

They waited too long to sell Iggy, Reggie, Bouw precisely because they were not trying to tank.

It's either something you hold your head high and brag about, or a missed opportunity.