Valimaki: ‘Stupid’ that he’s sitting

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

You decide based on what you see from zadorov

Sorry, I already know that Sutter isn't an idiot. If you're prepared to overturn all the other evidence from his whole career because of your hatred for one player, there's no point talking to you. But then, there wasn't much doubt of that.

If you only watch Zadorov when he has the puck, you'll only ever see his mistakes. He earns his keep on the other side of the game.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think it's likely that Valimaki works plenty hard in practice, just as I thought it was likely Kylington and Bennett worked hard in practice in the past.

The "practice habits" narrative is always one I find dubious at best. Guys aren't going to be lining their teammates up for open ice hits or blocking shots with their face. So what more can they do? Skate harder? These guys skate harder in-game than some of the more lackadaisical roster locks, yet I'm supposed to believe they dog it in practice?

Do you have any idea at all what goes on in an NHL practice? You've just picked out two things that obviously don't happen, and jumped to a whole bunch of foolish conclusions from that.

The mark of a good practice is not that you work hard. The mark of a good practice is that you learn to play your role in the system correctly. If you are making mental errors playing your position in practice, the coach will prefer not to let you make the same errors in actual games. It doesn't matter how hard Valimaki or anyone else works in practice if they're not correcting the mistakes we've seen from them in games.

And I get it - sometimes players practice longer after everyone else is gone... the ol' Jagr special. What proof do people have that Valimaki isn't one of those guys?

Ah, the argument from ignorance. ‘If X, then generally Y. There is no Y, but I'm going to assume X anyway, because you aren't actually omniscient and can't positively prove that there is no X anywhere!’

The reality is that "work harder in practice" is an empty statement usually used to justify poor coaching decisions.

The reality is that you have no information about that one way or the other, and no basis for saying what it ‘usually’ is or is not.

If management didn't bring in a 4 million dollar veteran defenseman who is arguably the 8th best D on the roster yet the fourth highest paid, we would not be having this conversation.

‘Arguably’ if you ignore the data. The metrics you are so fond of, as other posters have mentioned, make Valimaki 7th and Stone 8th. That's why they're sitting.

[activeStick]

Yeah, when coaches mention practice habits, for me I've always thought that while practicing with pace is one thing, executing in practice like you need to in game situations is the other thing.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

Not sure why that matters? Even if he does it really means nothing aside from Russian D is very thin. He is still a bad defenceman.

He's better than you give him credit for IMO

[Manhattanboy]

No time for whiney athletes and celebrities.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

‘Arguably’ if you ignore the data. The metrics you are so fond of, as other posters have mentioned, make Valimaki 7th and Stone 8th. That's why they're sitting.

If you're going to make things up, at least check your facts.

The metrics I am so fond of, have Valimaki 3rd and Zadorov 6th:

5v5 xGF%, SVA


Of course, I'm also fond of this thing called context, which you love to ignore, so I'm not sitting here saying Valimaki has been the 3rd best defenseman on the team. I'd argue he's been the 6th best defenseman on the team though, in the actual games, pretty easily.

But apparently Zadorov is doing these things in "practice" that Valimaki isn't doing, and if their salaries, ages, and heights were reversed, Zadorov would still be the one playing. lol.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Practice is about doing the right things not working hard

[Knightslayer]

This practice conversation getting out of hand. No one has said whether it's a practice issue just to be clear that is strictly speculation.

[Coach]

I think Zadorov does things Valimaki doesn’t, and that’s why, all else considered equal, he stays. He plays the body hard. He has an active stick that breaks up a lot of plays. He has created offensive chances, despite it not being his MO. And he’s a mean cuss who doesn’t let people get away with shots at his goalie/teammates. And when he makes a gaff, he’s often able to recover relatively well.

Valimaki is just sort of there. Hasn’t made enough of a case to bump either bottom pair player.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Coach

I think Zadorov does things Valimaki doesn’t, and that’s why, all else considered equal, he stays. He plays the body hard. He has an active stick that breaks up a lot of plays. He has created offensive chances, despite it not being his MO. And he’s a mean cuss who doesn’t let people get away with shots at his goalie/teammates. And when he makes a gaff, he’s often able to recover relatively well.

Valimaki is just sort of there. Hasn’t made enough of a case to bump either bottom pair player.

Yup, there really isn't that much difference in what both bring. Avg to below avg defensively, and offensively.

Tie breaker going to the bigger, more physical, and experienced dman.

[dino7c]

Their numbers are pretty even, people are acting like Cale Hulse is playing over Bobby Orr

Tie goes to the big guy who is going to pound the other team.

Vali should just get ready for his chance, like Zadorov did

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

If you're going to make things up, at least check your facts.

I'm not making anything up. I frankly can't be arsed to find the posts in question for your sake, but the defensive metrics that were quoted had Valimaki 7th. I know you don't believe that defence has any role in hockey, which is why the stats you like to cite are about offensive production. To top it off, you quote XGF%, which is a team statistic. As applied to an individual player, it is meaningless unless you have detailed information about which teammates he was on the ice with, and which opponents he was matched against. You haven't just failed to provide this information; you've failed even to acknowledge that there is any such information.

For what it's worth, the WAR chart on Zadorov rates him at the 98th percentile in even-strength defence and pretty much a washout in every other respect: which matches my eye test, though obviously not yours. In real hockey games, as opposed to spreadsheet exercises, players play different roles on a team, and it can be worth one's while to have a defenceman who specializes in, you know, defence. Of course a player who is cast in that role is not expected to be a big offensive contributor, and will tend to be put out in situations and with other players who are also defensively reliable at the expense of offensive production.

Of course, I'm also fond of this thing called context, which you love to ignore,

‘Context’ is not a fancy word for the noises going on in your head. CF% and XGF% are not context; they are aggregates of the actual data, and don't tell the story you think they do.

But apparently Zadorov is doing these things in "practice" that Valimaki isn't doing, and if their salaries, ages, and heights were reversed, Zadorov would still be the one playing. lol.

There you go with your narrative again. Nobody said anything about what Zadorov is or isn't doing in practice. But you go beating that straw man for all it's worth.

[SeanCharles]

Some of you are missing the point..

Valimaki will improve whereas Zadorov is what he is.

Problem is Valimaki needs icetime to improve.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Some of you are missing the point..

Valimaki will improve whereas Zadorov is what he is.

Problem is Valimaki needs icetime to improve.

I think Valimaki will be just fine. Like with Kylington, he is not a piece of fruit that is in danger of dying on the vine if only he doesn't miss more than eight or a dozen games in a row. I am fairly sure that the coaches know what they are doing.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

This practice conversation getting out of hand. No one has said whether it's a practice issue just to be clear that is strictly speculation.

and we're in here talking about practice. I mean, listen, we're talking about practice. Not a game! Not a game! Not a game! We're talking about practice. Not a game; not the game that I go out there and die for and play every game like it's my last, not the game, we're talking about practice, man. I mean, how silly is that? We're talking about practice.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think Sutter just likes having fresh defensemen in reserve, but I expect that Valimaki gets back in soon especially considering the schedule at the moment.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think Valimaki will be just fine. Like with Kylington, he is not a piece of fruit that is in danger of dying on the vine if only he doesn't miss more than eight or a dozen games in a row. I am fairly sure that the coaches know what they are doing.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Do they though? I mean, are the even members on a hockey internet forum or are they merely NHL coaches?

[neo45]

I’m just curious how Zadorov went from #8 on the depth chart and the team looking the best they have in years WITHOUT him, to a mainstay in the lineup even on back to backs during losing streaks when he plays bad

Because when Hanifin was out Sutter felt that Stone/Rasmus on the left was a better option than Zadorov and we still won

What are these magical practice habits that he didn’t have in October but he has in November and why aren’t they translating to games? Would love to see him complete a pass

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

He must be sick sitting out for zadorov

Treliving is probably the only idiot that didn’t know zadorov is horrible

Sutter would decide the lineup.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Sorry, I already know that Sutter isn't an idiot. If you're prepared to overturn all the other evidence from his whole career because of your hatred for one player, there's no point talking to you. But then, there wasn't much doubt of that.

If you only watch Zadorov when he has the puck, you'll only ever see his mistakes. He earns his keep on the other side of the game.

The NHL is not for those that play half a game.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk