Tell me about San Francisco

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Locke

...

And if you want my honest but only really semi-informed opinion, I think its largely due to the fact that SF and California, even America in general have been systematically destroying and devastating the middle-class.

So now you've got a population of fairly wealthy people who can afford to look the other way and do nothing and they're rubbing shoulders with people who have nothing left to lose.

They've squeezed out the normal people and the opportunities for the average citizen.

I would say this is a huge part of it and why I emphasized that the mall that closed was a high-end mall... In a city like SF, there's lots of high-earners and they're active in spending their money, so they create a lot of activity, but because they have money, those people have options and will only look the other way for so long before they just go somewhere else where they don't have to... And then, in a place like SF, there's no one left to take their place and things can spiral downward quite quickly.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You don’t know what experience other people have with the city so why pretend?

I’m saying that there isn’t a “full picture” being presented. Whether you spend a month there, read a few articles, read a poll of 1500 people, watch a video, or know a couple dozen people that actually still live there, it’s not the full picture.

Holy hell.

So I can't have an opinion unless I poll every single person that has ever visited SF? Spending a couple hundred nights living and working there "doesn't give me the full picture"?

What is the full picture then? Enlighten us?

Guess the only place I've ever breathed in second hand crack smoke at 8am? SF

Guess the only place I've stepped in human #### by accident? SF

Guess the only place I've had a homeless person grab my pocket from the outside and say "YOU HAVE MONEY!" when I wouldn't give them my leftovers? SF

I love that place, it's always been my favourite place to spend time in the US. But to pretend there isn't a massive problem is just naive.

And nothing pissed me off more than the tech bros in their $100 haircuts cutting around the homeless people on their $1000 e-scooters pretending they didn't exist.

Frankly people like you that downplay the situation are a massive part of the problem. It's got deep roots, and was there long before the pandemic or the opioid crisis. Affordability of housing and many other complex issues have left a MASSIVE amount of people completely destitute there, and literally dying on the streets. Treated by general society as literal human garbage. Where do you get off saying that isn't a problem and we don't have the "full picture"? People should be angry in that city and demanding change, just as we should here in Calgary as the same problems start to take hold before our eyes.

[edslunch]

SF is still one of our favourite cities and a week in February of this year did nothing to change that. Yes, there were an inordinate number of homeless, but we are big city savvy enough to avoid issues. I wouldn’t live there but would happily visit often.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Holy hell.

So I can't have an opinion unless I poll every single person that has ever visited SF? Spending a couple hundred nights living and working there "doesn't give me the full picture"?

What is the full picture then? Enlighten us?

Guess the only place I've ever breathed in second hand crack smoke at 8am? SF

Guess the only place I've stepped in human #### by accident? SF

Guess the only place I've had a homeless person grab my pocket from the outside and say "YOU HAVE MONEY!" when I wouldn't give them my leftovers? SF

I love that place, it's always been my favourite place to spend time in the US. But to pretend there isn't a massive problem is just naive.

And nothing pissed me off more than the tech bros in their $100 haircuts cutting around the homeless people on their $1000 e-scooters pretending they didn't exist.

Frankly people like you that downplay the situation are a massive part of the problem. It's got deep roots, and was there long before the pandemic or the opioid crisis. Affordability of housing and many other complex issues have left a MASSIVE amount of people completely destitute there, and literally dying on the streets. Treated by general society as literal human garbage. Where do you get off saying that isn't a problem and we don't have the "full picture"? People should be angry in that city and demanding change, just as we should here in Calgary as the same problems start to take hold before our eyes.

lol read my posts again. We’re obviously talking past each other and I have no idea why. I agree with you. It’s complex.

I said I didn’t have the whole picture, just like you. And I never said there wasn’t a problem so I don’t know why you’re pretending I did. All I’ve said is that the problem is more than just crime, or just homelessness. The mall didn’t close because of just “crime.” People aren’t avoiding the BART because of crime.

I only took issue with you writing my opinion off as some left vs right bull#### and saying “oh I worked there so I actually know what it’s like” as though it gave you some special privilege of information. Then to double down and say I’m part of the problem? lol, dude, get over yourself. Our opinions aren’t that far apart. People who try to reduce the problems facing downtown SF to one or two things are far more of a problem that someone who loves that city despite the problems.

I take issue with anyone saying it’s a #### hole. Despite its problems, it’s still an incredible city people should enjoy and not somewhere people should be afraid of. Sorry.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by you&me

I would say this is a huge part of it and why I emphasized that the mall that closed was a high-end mall... In a city like SF, there's lots of high-earners and they're active in spending their money, so they create a lot of activity, but because they have money, those people have options and will only look the other way for so long before they just go somewhere else where they don't have to... And then, in a place like SF, there's no one left to take their place and things can spiral downward quite quickly.

Exactly. We can dismiss a mall closing as just a side-effect of COVID, WFH and Amazon, but we really shouldnt just gloss it over as that.

Its always dangerous to ignore the canary in the coal mine.

[FireGilbert]

I love San Fran. Was there a decade ago and did all the tourist things biking over the bridge and touring Alcatraz. Then was back recently for a night to watch baseball and eat sourdough. Still one of the most beautiful cities in the world and great for tourists. Just need to exercise caution like you would in most places internationally.

Would definitely never live there with the high prices, traffic, and homelessness. Also seems like the local government is incapable of making the tough decisions to fix these problems.

[topfiverecords]

Well PepsiFree has spoken so y’all must shut down the discussion and keep your knowledge and experiences to yourselves.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Well PepsiFree has spoken so y’all must shut down the discussion and keep your knowledge and experiences to yourselves.

The stories are great! It’s nice to see that people can enjoy and appreciate the city despite its problems.

I’m sure “used to go there on business” guy thinks they’re part of the problem, too. Jiri did always strike me as a $1000 scooter driving tech bro with a haircut.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Jesus don’t drag me into this. I lost track of what this argument is even about

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Jesus don’t drag me into this. I lost track of what this argument is even about

Too late.

I believe the running argument is that anyone who doesn’t agree that SF is a zombie-infested #### hole is shutting down conversation and part of the problem. Or something.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Locke

And if you want my honest but only really semi-informed opinion, I think its largely due to the fact that SF and California, even America in general have been systematically destroying and devastating the middle-class.

So now you've got a population of fairly wealthy people who can afford to look the other way and do nothing and they're rubbing shoulders with people who have nothing left to lose.

They've squeezed out the normal people and the opportunities for the average citizen.

This is more a characteristic of major cities - and in particular the cores of major cities - rather than the country as a whole. The only people who can afford to own homes or even rent in these cities are professional, knowledge-economy workers. They need working-class people (who typically bus in from the suburbs) to serve them in restaurants, clean their offices, etc.

The problem is professionals don’t like stepping over human feces on their walk to the office and having their Amazon deliveries routinely stolen. And with remote work increasingly viable, they’re leaving en masse. Businesses that don’t want the expense of heavy security and losses from organized shoplifting rings are following in their wake.

As was pointed out up-thread, it’s a repeat of the white flight of the 50s and 60s, when middle-class and working-class residents moved out of city centres to the suburbs. During the 70s and 80s nobody wanted to live downtown in urban centres. Or hang out and spend money there on the weekends. They were usually desolate ####-holes.

It wasn’t until the late 90s that cities began to attract residents again. Knowledge industries employed young, educated workers. So hip coffee shops, trendy restaurants, gyms, etc. proliferated to serve them. Urban centres became cultural and economic engines again.

Looks like that era is now drawing to a close in many cities. The homelessness and addiction crisis are a big part of it. As is Covid. But it’s also just demographics - Millennials are hitting their prime home-buying, child-rearing, SUVs-driving years. The burbs have always been more attractive for that stage of life than urban centers.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Too late.

I believe the running argument is that anyone who doesn’t agree that SF is a zombie-infested #### hole is shutting down conversation and part of the problem. Or something.

The only one that was having an argument about anything was you. The rest were having normal discussion.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

The only one that was having an argument about anything was you. The rest were having normal discussion.

Just swap the word "argument" in my post for "normal conversation" then, if it troubles you. All good.

[Scornfire]

I will say, I don't think there's another NA city quite as frustrating to drive/park in. Great restaurants, interesting areas, not necessarily my vibe, but I always managed to find something worth buying in the myriad record stores. One of the better Baseball Parks too imo, worth catching a game.

Not sure how Alcatraz has fared over the last decade, but the last time I went on the island most of it was roped off due to safety concerns as the structures were starting to deteriorate. Pier 39 is worth at least a morning/afternoon to walk around, but obviously quite congested with tourists.

My personal recommendation would be to stay in Paso Robles, we spent a few Christmases in that area at pretty affordable AirBNBs, including a guesthouse at a winery (4 lanterns? I think). The surrounding area is rife with Breweries/Wineries and great views (Morro Bay is a nice day trip), the Drive up to San Fran is about 3 hours so if you're not someone who likes getting up a few hours early to hit up your itinerary then just stick to the general SF area, I'd say Mountain View is one of the "safest" places imo, but there's a lot of bias there as my sister has lived there for 8 years now.

Honesty, I find a lot of "old" SF derelict and just uncomfortable, some call it character, I call it run down. The jokes and shots taken at it for being a dirty city are somewhat justified, but I've been on streets in Edmonton, Vancouver and Calgary that are as bad or worse, it's a large city, and most of it is genuinely beautiful.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Just swap the word "argument" in my post for "normal conversation" then, if it troubles you. All good.

Always telling others how to be.

[soreshins]

Heading down to SF next weekend with some friends from the UK. Staying in Nob Hill/Union Square area - what’s the best way to get in from the airport? There will be 4 of us.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by soreshins

Heading down to SF next weekend with some friends from the UK. Staying in Nob Hill/Union Square area - what’s the best way to get in from the airport? There will be 4 of us.

Are you using SFO, OAK, or SJC?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by soreshins

heading down to sf next weekend with some friends from the uk. Staying in nob hill/union square area - what’s the best way to get in from the airport? There will be 4 of us.

bart

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by soreshins

Heading down to SF next weekend with some friends from the UK. Staying in Nob Hill/Union Square area - what’s the best way to get in from the airport? There will be 4 of us.

From what I've heard of SF these days...a tank.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

bart

For one person that would make sense, but they have four people presumably staying at the same hotel.

BART would be around $40 bucks for four people and then a walk. From SFO, an UberXL would be around $50-$60 straight to the door. From OAK, probably $60-$70.