Brad Treliving needs to go

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

It’s funny that the apologists think coaching is treliving only mistakes

Look at the team he built lol

Aside from not having an RW, what's your issue with the team?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Aside from not having an RW, what's your issue with the team?

Well he has dropped a lot of money on the backend and the dmen can neither really create offence or defend very well as a collective. For instance we spend 3 million more on the backend than the Leafs and I am not really sure which team has the better group of 6 dmen. Rielly is a far better offensive dman option than anything we have, Muzzin is comparable to Tanev and we just do not get enough from the rest of the d-core to definitively say it is better than Toronto's defence.

Two injuries up front this year have really exposed the lack of depth in the system, putting guys like Ritchie and Robinson into a NHL lineup. Even before that having PTO quality forwards like Nordstrom, Simon and Leivo as options for your top 12 exposes a lack of depth. Most teams would have players under 23 and on entry level contracts or contracts with the monetary value of entry level contracts in those positions. The Flames do not really have those options outside of Phillips so they have to use a PTO revolving door each year.

Those would be two issues for me compared to what you would expect on a true Cup contender.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Aside from not having an RW, what's your issue with the team?

I’m not Flames05 but I think most of the critique can come by looking at the team and saying:
A) for your current role, if you were playing on an elite team, would you be skilled enough to be on the same line? (you don’t want to see guys playing on the first line here and the third line on Colorado)
B) whatever your current role is, are you paid accordingly?

Without going player by player I think a complete overhaul needs to happen. The team to begin isn’t skilled enough as the big boys. And secondly the cap situation for the bottom six is a bit of a mess with the obvious being Lucic. That’s prevented a lot from getting a top line player. I’m not even starting on defence but at this point I can say both one and two top pairing dmen are missing. Gio falling off wasn’t this predictable but again, the team structure cap wise has messed up their ability to bring in a 1-2 d pairing. Lots of decisions ahead on who to keep and who should be dealt.

[btimbit]

Cap situation? We have one bad contract and that's just the fact that Lucic is 3m overpaid.

That's a hell of a lot better than most teams cap

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Cap situation? We have one bad contract and that's just the fact that Lucic is 3m overpaid.

That's a hell of a lot better than most teams cap

Giordano is overpaid compared to what he brings to the table. It is questionable whether Hanifin has ever produced at a top 2 dman level which is where he is paid at. Ryan is at best the Flames 8th best forward when he is in the lineup but his contract says he should be a should be a top 6 forward on his team. There are a number of players that are paid at a level higher than what they bring to the lineup.

[Red]

The team is struggling. No one looks particularly good right now.

Good coach, a good RW and a better top line C and all of a sudden every one else looks much better.

This is why Treliving did the team no favours by not going harder after potential game breakers like ROR, Stone and most recently Josh Anderson. This team lacks top talent with size.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Giordano is overpaid compared to what he brings to the table. It is questionable whether Hanifin has ever produced at a top 2 dman level which is where he is paid at. Ryan is at best the Flames 8th best forward when he is in the lineup but his contract says he should be a should be a top 6 forward on his team. There are a number of players that are paid at a level higher than what they bring to the lineup.

I really couldn't disagree more. Giordano was a fair deal and it's up next year anyway. Hanifin is paid in line with 2nd pair dmen. Ryan is paid as a 3rd liner and his contract is up in a matter of weeks so seems like a non-issue.


Honestly, the only one I don't like is Backlund

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I really couldn't disagree more. Giordano was a fair deal and it's up next year anyway. Hanifin is paid in line with 2nd pair dmen. Ryan is paid as a 3rd liner and his contract is up in a matter of weeks so seems like a non-issue.


Honestly, the only one I don't like is Backlund

Hanifin is the 60th highest paid dman in the league, making him a top 2 dman (barely). There are probably at least 80 dmen in the league that are objectively better than him.

Just in the North I would take Weber, Chariot, Petry, Brodie, Reilly, Muzzin, Morrissey, Nurse, Barrie, Chabot, Hughes and Edler over him in a straight hockey transaction and the defence in the North sucks compared to the rest of the league.

Backlund is a bad contract, I missed that one. Paid at a level where he should be a first liner, is a 2nd line player. The cap situation is not his biggest flaw though, his biggest flaw by far is using draft picks in trades to fill in holes. Trading a first and two seconds for Hamonic and signing ostensibly a top 4 dman in Stone in the same off-season. Ends up being a 1st, two 2nds, a 3rd and a 5th for two pretty mediocre dmen. The picks that were burned will be what fans look back at in 2-4 years and wonder what if.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I really couldn't disagree more. Giordano was a fair deal and it's up next year anyway. Hanifin is paid in line with 2nd pair dmen. Ryan is paid as a 3rd liner and his contract is up in a matter of weeks so seems like a non-issue.


Honestly, the only one I don't like is Backlund

Yeah, Giordano's contract is totally fine. You always knew it was going to hurt a little bit during the tail end, but Tree's even done a good job in planning a transition in having Hanifin and Valimaki.

Ryan's contract was a year too long - but that's free agency. Backlund's deal was also too long.

The one thing I will say is that I think if this team wanted to establish a winning culture, building a leadership group around Giordano and Backlund was a mistake. They've been here through this entire 7 year run, and just seemed to carry on the pre-existing culture of mediocrity. When it comes to building from the ground up (like they should have done), you can't get sentimental - and you can't be afraid about truly bottoming out.

I understand the fear in not wanting to be too bad, because you don't want a losing culture to set-in, but when you already had a losing culture - what are you afraid of? Hire the right coach, set out to build the right leadership group and believe in your own ability to set the cultural tone.

[-TC-]

For the most part, Brad has done a good job with talent. Year over year he's filled gaps in the roster and kept the team out of cap jail. Not all great, but no real stinkers either. You need to keep in mind the market, I love Calgary but it isn't NY, FLA or LA, or even Toronto.

Where Brad has failed is coaches. First there was Gully, and that whole train wreck, I had hopes for Peters, but... well, ya, so now we are on Ward and he does nothing to inspire confidence, in fact, I've gotten to the point where I don't trust the guy to make good decisions and he seems to get outcoached in-game every night.

Ward could cost Brad his job, and that's too bad, because he works really hard and gets the most out of his budget.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Yeah, Giordano's contract is totally fine. You always knew it was going to hurt a little bit during the tail end, but Tree's even done a good job in planning a transition in having Hanifin and Valimaki.

Ryan's contract was a year too long - but that's free agency. Backlund's deal was also too long.

The one thing I will say is that I think if this team wanted to establish a winning culture, building a leadership group around Giordano and Backlund was a mistake. They've been here through this entire 7 year run, and just seemed to carry on the pre-existing culture of mediocrity. When it comes to building from the ground up (like they should have done), you can't get sentimental - and you can't be afraid about truly bottoming out.

I understand the fear in not wanting to be too bad, because you don't want a losing culture to set-in, but when you already had a losing culture - what are you afraid of? Hire the right coach, set out to build the right leadership group and believe in your own ability to set the cultural tone.

Yeah I agree with that. I love Gio and Backlund but as far as leadership, they're both lead by example types. Show up, work hard, do your job, go home. The trouble is leading by example doesn't work when nobody is following. I get the sense there's some players on the team that need a good slap across the face wake up call from time to time. A guy like Crosby or Getzlaf who's known for calling people out in the locker room.

On that note, if the rumour is true the leadership is responsible for apparently telling Tkachuk to lose some of his edge, that's disgusting

[Frequitude]

My only knock on Treliving is not trading Gaudreau and Monahan already. For anything.

What’s more likely: All of the coaches sucked, or the thing that’s been constant across all of the coaches sucks?

Don’t you think it’s strange to have heard multiple coaches say the players need to start giving a crap?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

My only knock on Treliving is not trading Gaudreau and Monahan already. For anything.

What’s more likely: All of the coaches sucked, or the thing that’s been constant across all of the coaches sucks?

Don’t you think it’s strange to have heard multiple coaches say the players need to start giving a crap?

It’s not one or the other.

All of the coaching hires have absolutely sucked, and there’s a problem with the leadership/core of this team.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Yeah I agree with that. I love Gio and Backlund but as far as leadership, they're both lead by example types. Show up, work hard, do your job, go home. The trouble is leading by example doesn't work when nobody is following. I get the sense there's some players on the team that need a good slap across the face wake up call from time to time. A guy like Crosby or Getzlaf who's known for calling people out in the locker room.

On that note, if the rumour is true the leadership is responsible for apparently telling Tkachuk to lose some of his edge, that's disgusting

Is it though? I like Tkachuk, but some games he's playing the agitator too much to the point of overcompensating and it appears to be a "look at me". So if this was the case, and it's the first I've read, I think it would be fine. But leadership should also be telling the inconsistent guys to pick it up too, and to play with more emotion. It's a balance.


Edit: Agree with bringing in a guy like Getzlaf. Letting the younger inmates run the asylum when they're not ready to take on leadership roles, seems to be a bit of an issue right now.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Aside from not having an RW, what's your issue with the team?

The defense that cant create offense nor defend. This is after BT spent his lifetime as the Flames GM trying to focus on. We spent large amount of draft picks and money and ended up with Hamonic and Hanifin.


The top line that quit mid season every year and not good enough to compete with the top contender in the playoffs


No depth in the system to speak of. They can manage to get one line working max on any particular game.



The coach that is clueless on the bench.


Probably missing few other things.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by fleury

Is it though? I like Tkachuk, but some games he's playing the agitator too much to the point of overcompensating and it appears to be a "look at me". So if this was the case, and it's the first I've read, I think it would be fine. But leadership should also be telling the inconsistent guys to pick it up too, and to play with more emotion. It's a balance.

The leadership group is at the core of the inconsistencies. Backlund turns it off with the best of them. Giordano crumbles under pressure.

Giordano and Backlund are inadequate leaders.

[Lanny_McDonald]

To make a firing decision you have to look at an individual's whole body of work and where the organization currently stands. Treliving has had a fair shake in being able to guide this team, so the argument of he needs more time doesn't hold water. Seven years seems more than enough to complete a build or rebuild. To determine Mr. Trelving's fate you have to review key areas. Treliving's ability to manage the select personnel, his ability to manage the budget, his ability to manage his player assets and make deals to improve the team, his ability to draft, and his ability to build a development system.

Personnel Selection

Personnel selection has definitely been Treliving's greatest weakness. Coaching staffs have been a weakness of the club since Treliving arrived here, but it has long been a weakness of this team. I believe that a good organization starts with string leadership and management. Treliving has been god awful at picking coaches to lead this team. At a time when good game management is the difference between winning and losing Treliving's coaching decisions have been like spotting the opposition a goal or two a game. Picking a coach is not easy, but there is no way he should have whiffed this many times. Big strike here.

Budget Management

This is a bit of a mixed bag. Treliving has done a very good job at some of the bridge deals he has struck. He's got his best players on very friendly deals. The problem with Treliving is his free agent selections and contracts he negotiates. There have been some good ones like Michael Frolik and Derek Ryan, but they have been offset by Jonas Hiller, Mason Raymond, Troy Brouwer, Chad Johnson, Austin Czarnik and James Neal. This year's free agent signings of Marksrtom and Tanev leave some hope he has learned his lessons, but then the depth signings of Leivo, Simon and Nordstrom just have you going back and scratching your head. The biggest problem is Trelving never recognizing what the team needs and getting it. The Markstrom signing was great and addressed a big need, but the top RW hole has existed for years. How much better would this team be with even Tyler Toffoli with Gaudreau and Monahan? Light years. Another opportunity lost. Overall a very mixed bag. Not a strike, but not a success either.

Asset Management

This is one of Treliving's greatest weaknesses IMO. He just doesn't value the importance of having a good development system and keeping it well stocked, which negatively impacts depth on the team. We should have known when his first move was to trade a 3rd for Brandon Bollig. Since Treliving has taken over he has moved out three 1st round picks, five 2nd round picks, six 3rd round picks, and six picks from the 4th round on. He has managed to bring back zero 1st round picks, five 2nd round picks, four 3rd round picks, and six picks from the 4th round on. That's a net of minus three 1st rounders, even on 2nd rounders, minus two on third rounders, and then even on picks in the later rounds. That's minus five picks in the top half of the draft which is why our system is pretty much a black hole for prospects.

Treliving has been active in the college free agent pool but has not yet found a full time player. Same with the junior or European ranks. In a league where you can't leave any rock unturned there just isn't enough talent being discovered and brought in. This is why there is a depth problem in the organization. Big strike against him here.

Trades

This is the original mixed bag. He's made some good trades, bringing in Hamilton and then turning him into Lindholm and Hanifin (was the squeeze worth the juice in the long run?) but those have been tempered with other moves. In the positive column is Hamilton, Lindholm, Hanifin, Glencross, Baretschi, Hudler, Russell, David Jones, and Alex Chaisson. In the bad column is Michael Stone, Curtis Lazar, Mike Smith, Hamonic, Kulak, Fatenberg, Forbort, Gustafsson, and Milan Lucic. Some good, some bad. While the argument is being made that Lucic is a win because of James Neal, I will argue this a terrible deal because of the immovable salary which acts as an anchor around the team's neck. It can't be stated enough how much better this team would be without that contract. The fact that we are saddled with it is indicative of Treliving not doing his homework. Even though I think this is a fireable move in its own right, there is some good in this body and I will give him a pass.

State of the System

The hockey team is no better than when he took over and the system is much worse. The prospects we have are all longer shot prospects and don't jump out at you as difference makers. They are support quality players. What's worse is the organization is small. The players with NHL size are unskilled. Those with NHL talent are small. It is a poor situation from an organizational perspective. The job of the GM is to make the team better, which he has not done. There are some very solid pieces on the NHL roster that could turn this thing around under someone who knows what the hell he's doing, but there is no help coming from the minors. This is a strike against Treliving.

Bottom Line

Over all Brad Treliving is a reflection of his team, and his team a reflection of Brad Treliving. There is some really good, mixed in with some really bad. The whole organization is "meh." If I am running the team I am having a sit down with Mr. Treliving and let him know about my displeasure and that he is on notice, having three strikes against him and being inclined to fire him. I would say he has two measurable moves to make that will determine his future. He has one more kick at picking a coach and turning this thing around. He has one trade to make to address the current roster. Both will determine his future with the hockey club and in the NHL. Both had better result in betterment of the hockey club or he get's his pink slip at the end of this shortened season and we wash the slate of him and everything he has done. Yes, that will mean full rebuild and a new GM tasked with managing the fire sale. So no pressure. Just get the hiring of a coach right and a trade of a player right, and done in short order, otherwise pack your ####, you're out here.

[Saqe]

Talent definitely is a problem, no elite players on the team. Couple of very good players (regular season at least) but almost all teams have those pieces.

Talent is average which I guess is fitting to describe Treliving's tenure with the Flames. And it's not even his fault, he inherited the core pieces. Maybe he should've moved on from them earlier though.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Backlund is a bad contract, I missed that one. Paid at a level where he should be a first liner, is a 2nd line player.

I think Backlund is the 53rd highest paid centre in league so he is paid as a second line player

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Aside from not having an RW, what's your issue with the team?

Also if you are satisfied, take a step back and ask yourself even if we make the playoffs, which team can we beat even at our best? Toronto? Winnipeg? Montreal? Edmonton?


I doubt we can beat any of them. May not even Vancouver.