The Deal With Geoff Ward

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Red

It's possible that good coaches won't come here so we get the leftovers.

True. I can't see the current Flames being viewed as a place for an established head coach to progress their career at this point.

The team are a bunch of coach killers. We have a core that cried that the coach was too mean and got him fired. I think the message is out there that in Calgary, the inmates are running the asylum.

[Inglewood Jack]

31 (soon to expand to a whopping 32) NHL head coach positions available on the entire planet. If this is your profession and you’re looking for work, I have a hard time believing you’d be that picky over the particular location, unless you had specific things like family considerations.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

31 (soon to expand to a whopping 32) NHL head coach positions available on the entire planet. If this is your profession and you’re looking for work, I have a hard time believing you’d be that picky over the particular location, unless you had specific things like family considerations.

But it's not like the Flames have been the only team looking at coaches the past few years. The ones that were considered game changers had their pick of the litter. The number of available coaches considered to be game changers is probably smaller than the number of vacancies in any given year. I also don't think it is too uncommon for proven coaches to sit out and bide their time rather than opting to jump into a pressure cooker.

The Flames get to pick from the ones that can't afford to be picky.

[DeluxeMoustache]

If you saw the interviews from Bennett and Gio yesterday, once the mandatory Bennett nonsense was dealt with, they said they need to get pucks in deep and be hard on the forecheck. *sigh*

I have tried to give the guy the benefit of the doubt but, yeah, I am tired of Geoff Ward

It’s the Oilers. Try to confuse their D and they will gladly oblige.

[Classic_Sniper]

Ah another coaching diatribe. Takes me back to the Glen Gulutzan days. You know who’s really to blame for all these losses and should be held accountable? Those darn opponents who are making it so difficult for the Flames to achieve their game plan. It’s as if they’re paid or something to do it too. Very shady. The opposition coach should just lay out a game plan for the Flames to win every time, that’ll solve all of our problems.

[Calgary4LIfe]

IIRC, Hartley was making over 2 million a year (can't remember the exact figure - 2.5? 3.0?), and that was before coaching salaries saw a dramatic increase.


As for good coaches not wanting to come here, I am not sure about that. We know that Boudreau wasn't contacted - maybe he was lying and just helping Calgary to save face, maybe not. I don't consider him a good coach anyway (not one single season in his resume has one of his teams 'overachieved' - usually the opposite, especially in the playoffs IMO).



I really do believe that Treliving is just focused on certain ideologies within the coaching ranks that agree with his own philosophies.



One thing that I am unsure of is how Darryl Sutter fits into that category. He wasn't contacted either before Treliving hired Peters (though it seemed that nobody else was as Peters seemed to be Treliving's target). However, IIRC, LA was one of the better possession teams under Sutter. I have to assume that nothing much has changed and that Darryl would still be happy to coach here - it has only been 2 years. He is by far my first choice if a coach is going to get replaced.


There is nobody else out there that really stands out as a great coach. Like I said, I think Boudreau is overrated. Gallant seems to get his teams to out-perform expectations, but he also seems to get fired rather quickly for some reason, and that gives me some doubts.


I really want a coach with a track record of taking his teams further than what the expectations were, or at least entering an organization that was severely under-performing and then getting them back on track. Bonus if they did it with more than one team. Hartley fits that bill, but there is no way you can bring him back, especially with the rumoured 'issues' (and I am not advocating that - just pointing out examples).


It seems like there are two sides to this argument:


1) Why change the coach again, when they have done that so often already? It HAS to be the players!
2) Hire a competent coach for once, and then we can at least rule that out if it doesn't work. Then we can blame it on the players!


I think the longer either of these questions go unanswered, and the Flames continue to flounder in mediocrity, or at least not perform to expectations (2nd round of playoffs? Does that seem fair? 3rd round?), the more heat that Treliving will face. Whether it is the players, or whether it is the coaching staff is irrelevant as he is responsible for addressing both issues.


I am also not advocating that Treliving should be dismissed either. Just stating that he is indeed responsible for coaching decisions and roster moves, and that if the Flames don't break out of this cycle he will eventually be thrown into the fire like everyone else.



What people don't bring up or don't want to talk about, is that his first season was his most successful season where he made the least amount of roster moves/coaching decisions. Now, I do think that this team is more talented and better constructed that that team was - there is no question. The counter argument is that Flames got 'lucky' in playing an 'easy' team in the first round. We can argue that point forever, but all I know is that this team has been through a rebuild, every single contract on the team right now has passed through his desk, all the roster moves are his, and all the coaching hires have been his already. Yet this team still hasn't gotten out of the 1st round.


2013/14 was year one of the rebuld (2012/13 was the 'tear down', so not sure which year you want to start with). This is the 2020-21 season, so it has been 7 years. Is this team a contender?


We as fans at the moment don't even seem sure that this team is a playoff team this year. Not everyone of course. I think they are a playoff team and something has to go 'off the rails' for them not to be. However, it seems to me that this team is more likely to miss the playoffs than to make it to the conference finals.


Some of the let-downs in the playoffs could be rationalized away under 'poor goaltending' (ignoring that Treliving was responsible for this as well, but I do give him credit for trying and the prices were indeed high at times). This year there will be no excuses I think. Whether this is a poorly constructed team, or a team that is poorly coached, even I am not positive. I want a proven coach as defined by me above, but I do think that this will be the year that if the Flames miss, Treliving gets pushed out of the frying pan and into the fire, and he will start taking a lot of heat. He better be very sure on Ward.


7 years should be long enough to either build a winner, or know you built a dud. I would at least like to know for sure just one of these seasons if it was the players or the coach.

[Jacks]

Maybe Treliving just just sucks at evaluating coaches?
He fired Hartley, mid contract in a rebuild, who at least was getting results and holding the players accountable.
The exhaustive search that followed resulted in the hiring of Gulutzan who was a disaster.
Next he decided not to bother interviewing anyone and just hired Peters right away.
Next he extended the interm coach who seems mediocre at best.

It's been said before but if the coaches the Flames hire (and fire) are never able to find another NHL head coach job after maybe they aren't that good to begin with.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Maybe Treliving just just sucks at evaluating coaches?
He fired Hartley, mid contract in a rebuild, who at least was getting results and holding the players accountable.
The exhaustive search that followed resulted in the hiring of Gulutzan who was a disaster.
Next he decided not to bother interviewing anyone and just hired Peters right away.
Next he extended the interm coach who seems mediocre at best.

It's been said before but if the coaches the Flames hire (and fire) are never able to find another NHL head coach job after maybe they aren't that good to begin with.

This nailed it.
Starts at the top and Brad's had a pretty long leash here.
As much as I want a new coach (real bad) I think we need to look at the GM role too, how much longer does it get?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ah another coaching diatribe. Takes me back to the Glen Gulutzan days. You know who’s really to blame for all these losses and should be held accountable? Those darn opponents who are making it so difficult for the Flames to achieve their game plan. It’s as if they’re paid or something to do it too. Very shady. The opposition coach should just lay out a game plan for the Flames to win every time, that’ll solve all of our problems.

You think dump and chase play with tiny forwards and sticking to the outside is going to win?

Nah, coaches don’t actually do anything

Nice contribution. Pretty much trolling level value

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ah another coaching diatribe. Takes me back to the Glen Gulutzan days. You know who’s really to blame for all these losses

You may notice, had you actually read the thread you are so coyly responding to, that this was created when the Flames were 18-11-2 under Ward.

That is not a diatribe blaming a coach for losses.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You think dump and chase play with tiny forwards and sticking to the outside is going to win?

Nah, coaches don’t actually do anything

Nice contribution. Pretty much trolling level value

This might be the GM too. I think the organization wants to play “heavy hockey” but built a team that isn’t good at it.

Every time I see them dump a puck into the corner on Gaudreau’s wing I want to lose my mind.

In the 18-19 season when this team was playing good they rarely dumped the puck in and pretty much every regular forward had a carry-in percentage above 60%.

This year I’d be shocked if any of them were above 60% - the coach even has Gaudreau dumping it in.

GranteedEV said it in his post but really to me the issue I have with this coach had little to do with his record but is more with the style he has the team playing, & his bench management.

Really they play a style that is dependant on winning the special teams battle, and at 5v5 they just want to muck it up and play boring, low risk hockey.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You think dump and chase play with tiny forwards and sticking to the outside is going to win?

Nah, coaches don’t actually do anything

Nice contribution. Pretty much trolling level value

Seriously, in this league today, who doesn’t dump and chase? How is any team supposed to cross through the neutral zone when it’s clogged full of bodies. The alternative would be to try to navigate through, then likely turn it over and get scored on. Then CP erupts trying to trade the guy because he’s a turnover machine.

Dump and chase has a lot to do with what the opposition gives you. It’s ultimately the safest route and what most teams attempt to do in this league. Puck gets dumped in, forecheck is activated, you try to turn pucks over and create offense from their chaos. The Flames also activate a hard forecheck when retrieving loose pucks from missed opportunities, their D-men are asked to pinch a lot which aids in the forecheck.

Watch the 1st lines highlights of this team under Ward or Peters. They have the same strategy. I’d say 60% to 70% of their even strength goals were scored on the forecheck. That was the same strategy that lead to Gaudreau and Monahan absolutely crushing their career highs.

Now if the question is whether the personnel of this team is the right mix right now, that’s a better question. But fact is, the Flames don’t have another puck hound like Elias Lindholm they can stick on a line with #13 & #23, so yes, at even strength, they’ve suffered. But Treliving has built the team this year to run Elias Lindholm down the middle, so this is the situation as it stands. Have the wingers Tre signed been successful? No they haven’t and that’s probably the better issue at hand right now.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You may notice, had you actually read the thread you are so coyly responding to, that this was created when the Flames were 18-11-2 under Ward.

That is not a diatribe blaming a coach for losses.

This is absolutely a diatribe on the coach which has been bumped up due to losses mounting. Like honestly, is anyone here a professional hockey coach? Does anyone here know more about the game then a Geoff Ward or a Bill Peters or a Glen Gulutzan? We don’t know squat. This game has so much read and react I don’t know how coaching could possibly ever be the biggest problem. To me, it always comes down to the players or possibly the GM who constructs the team and vision.

I just think this place has an addiction. An addiction to blame coaches and blame every aspect of what we believe is good coaching or bad coaching like we’re experts or something. Like how many more coaches will this team have to go through before this fanbase finally understands it’s not the coach?

Now I’ll be fair, a lot of fanbases do this, an example would be up North who’ve went through more coaches than we have and they’ve tried it all. Player’s coaches, veteran coaches, top prospect coached, hall of fame coaches, future hall of fame coaches and nothing. Absolutely no difference and a new coach here, wouldn’t make much of a difference either because unless they can strap on the skates and blow past defenders like McDavid can, they’re still just suits standing behind a bench.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Seriously, in this league today, who doesn’t dump and chase? How is any team supposed to cross through the neutral zone when it’s clogged full of bodies. The alternative would be to try to navigate through, then likely turn it over and get scored on. Then CP erupts trying to trade the guy because he’s a turnover machine.

Dump and chase has a lot to do with what the opposition gives you. It’s ultimately the safest route and what most teams attempt to do in this league. Puck gets dumped in, forecheck is activated, you try to turn pucks over and create offense from their chaos. The Flames also activate a hard forecheck when retrieving loose pucks from missed opportunities, their D-men are asked to pinch a lot which aids in the forecheck.

Watch the 1st lines highlights of this team under Ward or Peters. They have the same strategy. I’d say 60% to 70% of their even strength goals were scored on the forecheck. That was the same strategy that lead to Gaudreau and Monahan absolutely crushing their career highs.

Now if the question is whether the personnel of this team is the right mix right now, that’s a better question. But fact is, the Flames don’t have another puck hound like Elias Lindholm they can stick on a line with #13 & #23, so yes, at even strength, they’ve suffered. But Treliving has built the team this year to run Elias Lindholm down the middle, so this is the situation as it stands. Have the wingers Tre signed been successful? No they haven’t and that’s probably the better issue at hand right now.

I agree with this. I don’t think there is a coach in the league that tells the players that as soon as they get in the offensive zone, they need to dump and chase at all costs. Obviously they would rather have players keep possession and make a play. But if the option is dump or a high probability of losing possession, you have to make the safe play.

I will say that this team has to dump and chase more often than some others, which is a personnel issue and not a coaching one

[Manhattanboy]

I’ve had enough of all of them and sorry to say I will always love you Gelinas but your time behind this bench is done as well.

[shadowlord]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Seriously, in this league today, who doesn’t dump and chase? How is any team supposed to cross through the neutral zone when it’s clogged full of bodies. The alternative would be to try to navigate through, then likely turn it over and get scored on. Then CP erupts trying to trade the guy because he’s a turnover machine.

Dump and chase has a lot to do with what the opposition gives you. It’s ultimately the safest route and what most teams attempt to do in this league. Puck gets dumped in, forecheck is activated, you try to turn pucks over and create offense from their chaos. The Flames also activate a hard forecheck when retrieving loose pucks from missed opportunities, their D-men are asked to pinch a lot which aids in the forecheck.

Watch the 1st lines highlights of this team under Ward or Peters. They have the same strategy. I’d say 60% to 70% of their even strength goals were scored on the forecheck. That was the same strategy that lead to Gaudreau and Monahan absolutely crushing their career highs.

Now if the question is whether the personnel of this team is the right mix right now, that’s a better question. But fact is, the Flames don’t have another puck hound like Elias Lindholm they can stick on a line with #13 & #23, so yes, at even strength, they’ve suffered. But Treliving has built the team this year to run Elias Lindholm down the middle, so this is the situation as it stands. Have the wingers Tre signed been successful? No they haven’t and that’s probably the better issue at hand right now.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. Dump and chase is a valid strategy. But what I've noticed especially in the last few games is that the puck carrier will dump the puck into a corner, but no Flames will go after the puck. So we're doing the dump part, but nobody is chasing it.

It's one of my big criticisms of the Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane line's play last season. For some reason, Tkachuk wasn't chasing after the puck, and Mangiapane would make an effort to get there with his speed, but either didn't get there in time or lost the puck battle.

I think they both get confused for a split second when playing together that one is supposed to be playing RW since they're both LWs. You'll see this particularly in the defensive zone when both of them end up on the same side of the ice.

But enough of that line, I see similar elements in Gaudreau's line too. I think that line needs a puck retriever that isn't afraid to throw the body a bit. Lindholm is a good example. Lucic has good board play, but he's too slow. Ferland was great at it and Hudler was able to get there quickly and pass to his teammates (because he wasn't a big body to retain the puck if it got physical).

Bennett could do that role, if he could somehow play more consistently... I haven't seen enough of Simon or Leivo to make that determination. However, Monahan and Gaudreau rarely go in to support their winger, so any winger there has to fight off the defenders on his own. I think that's why Lindholm's talents are wasted on that line, but Lindholm is the team's most effective RW for them. Lindholm's wrist shot is one of his assets, and he shouldn't be responsible for puck retrieval on his own.

If you want to see a master of puck possession play, see Craig Conroy in the later stages of his Flames career. His work using his teammates to keep the cycle going was frustrating to opponents, I'm sure. What I noticed is that those linemates didn't need to be big bruisers that stayed along the boards... Conroy somehow made it so that linemates could stay away from the boards without the puck, then pop-by for an instance to chip the puck to another teammate to continue the cycle.

Anyway, the way the Flames are currently constructed, if the players refuse to chase after pucks, then they should carry the puck into the zone in rather than play dump and chase. The coach can preach about "getting pucks deep", but if the players aren't retreiving it, then we're going to see less offensive pressure and fewer scoring chances.

[dissentowner]

Geoff Ward is GG v.2.0. but not the one your thinking.
Greg Gilbert.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Dump and chase is a tool you need in your toolbox, which you don’t need to rely on as much when you have a quick transition game and play with pace. It was at its worst when Smith was here but it’s still not much better

[DeluxeMoustache]

Duplicate

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

This is absolutely a diatribe on the coach which has been bumped up due to losses mounting. Like honestly, is anyone here a professional hockey coach? Does anyone here know more about the game then a Geoff Ward or a Bill Peters or a Glen Gulutzan? We don’t know squat. This game has so much read and react I don’t know how coaching could possibly ever be the biggest problem. To me, it always comes down to the players or possibly the GM who constructs the team and vision.

I just think this place has an addiction. An addiction to blame coaches and blame every aspect of what we believe is good coaching or bad coaching like we’re experts or something. Like how many more coaches will this team have to go through before this fanbase finally understands it’s not the coach?

Now I’ll be fair, a lot of fanbases do this, an example would be up North who’ve went through more coaches than we have and they’ve tried it all. Player’s coaches, veteran coaches, top prospect coached, hall of fame coaches, future hall of fame coaches and nothing. Absolutely no difference and a new coach here, wouldn’t make much of a difference either because unless they can strap on the skates and blow past defenders like McDavid can, they’re still just suits standing behind a bench.

This isn't an argument. What else is there to talk about on a forum after the game? There would only be 1 thread per day on game days - a PGT - and every single post would either be: "Yay, we won!", or "Dammit, we lost!". That's it.


If you don't agree with what is being said, then feel free to voice your opinions on why you don't agree (like much of the rest of your post), but posting that people shouldn't have an opinion on this because they are not professional coaches at or above the level of the coaches that are being critiqued, adds absolutely nothing of value.