[PGT] Flames 3 - Sabers 2 (OT)

[Roof-Daddy]

I remember thinking last year when the big 4 were all point per game or better and having career years, that if that production wasn't sustainable the Flames were going to fall off a cliff when it normalized.

Add to that Gio having a Norris season and being 35+ and also due for a drop off in play. Yikes.

Can still be a winning team, but they really need an upgrade at center.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

I think it's all mental with Gaudreau. He doesn't strike me as the toughest player mentally, unlike Tkachuk or Giordano. I still think Gaudreau needs maturing in that regard. There's no way he's lost a step at his age. He put up 99 points last season and didn't sustain a career-changing injury.

This might also be his season low for TOI. Amazing that the top ice time for forwards belong to:

Tkachuk
Backlund
Lindholm
Mangiapane

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I remember thinking last year when the big 4 were all point per game or better and having career years, that if that production wasn't sustainable the Flames were going to fall off a cliff when it normalized.

Add to that Gio having a Norris season and being 35+ and also due for a drop off in play. Yikes.

Can still be a winning team, but they really need an upgrade at center.

I think Gaudreau/Monahan's struggles have lifted a lot of attention away from Giordano this year.

He's made a lot of dumb plays, but I think that's stemming from him just trying to do too much, knowing that the offence is really struggling, so you see him being overly aggressive with pinches, etc.

The thing that troubles me far more, is that defensively, he's just not winning battles along the boards, or 50/50 pucks at the unreal rate he has in past years. Last year, when a rebound or whatever, went to the corner, and he had to go from in front of the net to the puck, him coming away winning that battle was basically an automatic.

[neo45]

Monahan and Gaudreau as the offensive catalysts is just a huge design flaw in the team that SOMETIMES works out well but can be shut down too easily. Especially in a seven game series

Seriously, it’s not good to have a 1C who is essentially a trigger man with a decent two way game. He isn’t a good passer, isn’t physical, and isn’t fast. It’s a huge problem for this franchise moving forward that’s been masked by the fact that those two have been able to heat up for long regular season stretches at times.

Lindholm to 1C full time please. Even when he went ice cold for 20ish games he was still a useful player. He should be in the middle

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by neo45

Monahan and Gaudreau as the offensive catalysts is just a huge design flaw in the team that SOMETIMES works out well but can be shut down too easily. Especially in a seven game series

Seriously, it’s not good to have a 1C who is essentially a trigger man with a decent two way game. He isn’t a good passer, isn’t physical, and isn’t fast. It’s a huge problem for this franchise moving forward that’s been masked by the fact that those two have been able to heat up for long regular season stretches at times.

Lindholm to 1C full time please. Even when he went ice cold for 20ish games he was still a useful player. He should be in the middle

In hindsight it might be a good thing that those 2 are in a slump because it opens the door for others to take some leadership. If there was anything lacking in the past it was that the top line was heavily relied on to carry the team, scoring. Changing the team dynamics might just be what this team needs. What to do about the dead weight..?

[Kovaz]

I'm also on board with a Tkachuk-Lindholm-X line. I think the idea of using one of them to get Gaudreau and Monahan going has run its course - at this point, if they're going to get back on track, it falls to them to step their game up.

Tkachuk-Lindholm gives you a top line that doesn't have to be sheltered but can still produce offense. I wouldn't be nearly as afraid of seeing them match up against an opponent's top line as I am with Gaudreau-Monahan.

[CroFlames]

You need another top 6 forward so you can roll with the pairings of Tkachuk-Lindholm and Johnny-Monahan. Mangipane, Bennett, and a couple others can take reps on the top two lines, but you need a mainstay as well. Hall seems like a realistic candidate, but with the defense being riddled with bullet holes at the moment, all you can trade is picks. Backlund & Ryan round out the 3&4 C spots, and fill in the rest.

If you think the window is now, you trade the picks.

Rittich is giving you a chance every night so IMO the time is now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

I'm also on board with a Tkachuk-Lindholm-X line. I think the idea of using one of them to get Gaudreau and Monahan going has run its course - at this point, if they're going to get back on track, it falls to them to step their game up.

Tkachuk-Lindholm gives you a top line that doesn't have to be sheltered but can still produce offense. I wouldn't be nearly as afraid of seeing them match up against an opponent's top line as I am with Gaudreau-Monahan.

Why has it run its course. Tkachuk-Monahan was given one game, looked pretty good, and then dropped.

I like Lindholm a lot, but everyone is assuming he can handle 1C duties when he's never done it. He's excelled in Calgary, but as a winger beside Monahan. That's a much easier job.

I do agree that a top line that can handle facing opposing top lines is a must. Two lines that can do so is ideal. That's why I've been suggesting having Backlund play on a wing with Monahan and Lindholm play C with Gaudreau - it's the two best two way forwards with the two best offensive forwards aside from Tkachuk, who you could add to either line (my preference is with Monahan and Backlund).

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Why has it runs its course. Tkachuk-Monahan was given one game, looked pretty good, and then dropped.

I like Lindholm a lot, but everyone is assuming he can handle 1C duties when he's never done it. He's excelled in Calgary, but as a winger beside Monahan. That's a much easier job.

Yeah, Lindholm is definitely playing better than Monahan right now but he has never played center at the NHL level. I think it is worth trying for sure but I am not as convinced he will kill it like some people think.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I think Gaudreau/Monahan's struggles have lifted a lot of attention away from Giordano this year.

He's made a lot of dumb plays, but I think that's stemming from him just trying to do too much, knowing that the offence is really struggling, so you see him being overly aggressive with pinches, etc.

The thing that troubles me far more, is that defensively, he's just not winning battles along the boards, or 50/50 pucks at the unreal rate he has in past years. Last year, when a rebound or whatever, went to the corner, and he had to go from in front of the net to the puck, him coming away winning that battle was basically an automatic.

While I agree he's not been very good especially relative to last season, he's 36 years old and averaging almost 25 minutes on ice per game which is top 15 in the league and truth be told the entire defense as a whole has played considerably worse than last season. It's fair to assume that we will never see last season Giordano ever again which is why the window for this group may shut fast if the organization cannot replace his minutes and becomes overly dependant on a declining player anchoring the back end.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

While I agree he's not been very good especially relative to last season, he's 36 years old and averaging almost 25 minutes on ice per game which is top 15 in the league and truth be told the entire defense as a whole has played considerably worse than last season. It's fair to assume that we will never see last season Giordano ever again which is why the window for this group may shut fast if the organization cannot replace his minutes and becomes overly dependant on a declining player anchoring the back end.

All true. If you look long term: Hanifin replaces Brodie - lots of the same qualities. Andersson replaces Hamonic - lots of the same qualities, but can be better than Hamonic. So I think we are looking to Valimaki to replace Gio. Whch would be awesome if he can do it.

Kylington - the jury's out. He's sort of Brodie like insofar as his skating is excellent (and his gaffes seem to be the kind that create grade A chances like Brodie's), but his passing isn't there yet, and I need to see if his game awareness bets better. But his potential is sure there.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

I just think he’s having a bad year, as most great players do. Reminds me of Claude Giroux. Consistent improvement from years 1-4 (27 -> 47 -> 76 -> 93 points). Regressed slightly over the next couple of years and then really dropped off for a couple of years after that (seasons of 67 and 58 points) before a big rebound back to seasons of 102 and 85 points. Great players aren’t immune to regression. I suspect that’s all this is, an off year.

Yeah.

If we can get a spurt of good play in april from him in this down year, I'll take that.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I'm all for spreading the offence but Mangi has 9 points and Gaudreau has 20

Adjust for ice time and it’s probably a wash.

Johnny has not looked good at all. Points seldom tell the whole story and in his case despite his points he’s been terrible this year.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I agree he is struggling but to call him a black hole and praise Mangi is silly

It's far from silly, its reality. Gaudreau has been awful this year. Mangiapane has been good. We're just calling it as we see it.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Yeah, Lindholm is definitely playing better than Monahan right now but he has never played center at the NHL level. I think it is worth trying for sure but I am not as convinced he will kill it like some people think.

He's played centre in the NHL, both in Carolina and much less so in Calgary.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

He's played centre in the NHL, both in Carolina and much less so in Calgary.

Not much in Carolina either:

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...elias-lindholm

About 13% of his ES time in 2017-18 (and 5 points, if I'm reading it right, which is about 13-14% of his ES production). however, his linemates when he played C were sub-optimal.

I always thought one of the purposes behind the trade was to get him centre ice time here.

[Stanley]

Is there a stat for most giveaways in the NHL by team? Flames have got to be in the top 3...it's mind boggling the scoring chances they gift every team this season.

[Stanley]

oh here's one:

https://morehockeystats.com/teams/givetake

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Not much in Carolina either:

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/...elias-lindholm

About 13% of his ES time in 2017-18 (and 5 points, if I'm reading it right, which is about 13-14% of his ES production). however, his linemates when he played C were sub-optimal.

I always thought one of the purposes behind the trade was to get him centre ice time here.

I was pretty sure that when the trade went down Cane's fans were saying that Lindholm was a winger not a centre with them

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I was pretty sure that when the trade went down Cane's fans were saying that Lindholm was a winger not a centre with them

Well, he was, 85% of the time or so, either with Aho or Skinner. But he was drafted as a C and there was a lot of talk here that he could centre a line (quite a bit of Tkachuk-Lindholm-Neal talk).