[News] Flames buyout Michael Stone's contract after clearing waivers

[Oling_Roachinen]

They could have signed Tkachuk and immediately bought him out for even more cap space than buying Brodie out!

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It wasn't an awful signing though - he was a useful player for a while. Things have changed now, but that doesn't make your statement any more right.

Now, had you said: "he's going to have health issues, and the kids are all going to reach the NHL faster than we think, so this is a terrible signing", now that would have been impressive!

You're not supposed to actually click the link and read the quote, Enoch Root!

[bax]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

I think Alexander Yelesin is a lot closer to to being a NHL regular than Stockton, really. The guy was a KHL All Star. And he's a righty.

I hope so, but the whole KHL All Star thing doesn't really do it for me.

Other KHL All Stars last year include Nakladal, Khokhlachyov, Nesterov, Paul Postma, Tryamkin, Nigel Dawes, and Stephan Da Costa.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It wasn't an awful signing though - he was a useful player for a while. Things have changed now, but that doesn't make your statement any more right.

Now, had you said: "he's going to have health issues, and the kids are all going to reach the NHL faster than we think, so this is a terrible signing", now that would have been impressive!

I specifically remember how much flack CHL took in that thread.

Stone was awful before his health concerns. Maybe it's in poor taste, but CHL absolutely gets to point it out.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah I know some people on here still don't fully believe the value of advanced stats but a lot of the guys that believe in those numbers (CHL, Kent Wilson, etc) hated both this contract and the Brouwer contract from the minute they were signed.

And they were right.

And it's not that Stone was useless (I actually would have preferred just eating the last deal of this contract if they could have found cap space somewhere else) it's just that he was paid $1.0 - $1.5M too much which is the norm for UFAs) on a contract that was 1 year too long (the bigger issue with this deal IMO), and now it came back to bite the Flames.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I specifically remember how much flack CHL took in that thread.

Stone was awful before his health concerns. Maybe it's in poor taste, but CHL absolutely gets to point it out.

Except for the fact that Stone was a very serviceable player until the health issues. So it wasn't a bad signing. Though obviously there is going to be a portion of the fanbase that doesn't like the player.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah I know some people on here still don't fully believe the value of advanced stats but a lot of the guys that believe in those numbers (CHL, Kent Wilson, etc) hated both this contract and the Brouwer contract from the minute they were signed.

And they were right.

And it's not that Stone was useless (I actually would have preferred just eating the last deal of this contract if they could have found cap space somewhere else) it's just that he was paid $1.0 - $1.5M too much on a contract that was 1 year too long, and now it came back to bite the Flames.

People that base their opinions of players on advanced stats turn out to be right about half the time (i.e. randomly). And whenever it happens, people always say "See? They were right!"

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Except for the fact that Stone was a very serviceable player until the health issues. So it wasn't a bad signing. Though obviously there is going to be a portion of the fanbase that doesn't like the player.

Biggest issue with the deal from day one was that it was 1 year too long.

At the time you had Brodie, Hamilton, Hamonic, Giordano, all signed through 19-20.

And Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington, Fox, etc looking like they could be aiming to crack the lineup by 19-20.

The signing was fine because they did need that 2 year stop gap to bridge from that offseason to now, but it always looked like it was 1 year too long from the second it was signed based on the organization depth.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

People that base their opinions of players on advanced stats turn out to be right about half the time (i.e. randomly). And whenever it happens, people always say "See? They were right!"

I'm not keeping tabs but when it comes to UFA signings across the league but I would guess they are right more than 50% of the time based on just looking at the Flames transactions over the last couple years.

I just look at the players in the Flames organization that "Advanced Stats" guys were adamant were bad players that shouldn't be signing / re-signing to long term contracts / Flames shouldn't have acquired here to start with (over the last 5 seasons).

Russell, Stone, Brouwer, Engelland, Bouma, Bollig, Colborne, Lazar, Hamonic

I think in that group really Engelland (fairly good bottom pairing D), and Hamonic (okay player but advanced stats folks thought acquisition cost was too high) were the ones you could say they were "wrong" about. So that's like 80% of the time.

And then if you look at the guys advanced stats were fond of that they were mad we either let go, or were happy when we acquired (or both in the case of Hamilton).

Byron, Frolik, Ryan, Hamilton (both times), Czarnik,

Only one there that I think there that the advanced stats group was probably wrong about was the initial hate of the return from the Hamilton trade to Carolina. The rest of the guys have probably been fine, Czarnik wasn't as good as they thought he'd be but not a boat anchor at all.

So much better than 50% there IMO.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Biggest issue with the deal from day one was that it was 1 year too long.

At the time you had Brodie, Hamilton, Hamonic, Giordano, all signed through 19-20.

And Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington, Fox, etc looking like they could be aiming to crack the lineup by 19-20.

The signing was fine because they did need that 2 year stop gap to bridge from that offseason to now, but it always looked like it was 1 year too long from the second it was signed based on the organization depth.

The far bigger issue was that Stone didn't have a top 4 role on the team as the roster was constructed as Hamilton, Brodie, and Hamonic were all superior RD. In fact I remember arguing vehemently that we needed a LD in the first place to fill out the roster, as Giordano/Kulak/A young Kylington was our LD depth at the time. Forcing Brodie to the left to force Stone into the lineup was a fundamental issue from day one. Del Zotto was who i was proposing, and at 3M x 2Y we would already have been out of that deal by now instead of a buyout.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The far bigger issue was that Stone didn't have a top 4 role on the team as the roster was constructed as Hamilton, Brodie, and Hamonic were all superior RD. In fact I remember arguing vehemently that we needed a LD in the first place to fill out the roster, as Giordano/Kulak/A young Kylington was our LD depth at the time. Forcing Brodie to the left to force Stone into the lineup was a fundamental issue from day one. Del Zotto was who i was proposing, and at 3M x 2Y we would already have been out of that deal by now instead of a buyout.

Yeah, but then we would have had Del Zotto who is and was categorically worse in every way. Not sure that was a better option at the time all things considered.

[Rando]

Stone was complete overkill after we had just traded for Hamonic.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Yeah, but then we would have had Del Zotto who is and was categorically worse in every way. Not sure that was a better option at the time all things considered.

We would have had RD Brodie in 2017-18 instead of that godawful Brodie-Hamonic pair, plus a Kulak-Hamonic third pair which should have accomplished far more than the Kulak-Stone pair. And last year it would have been inconsequential with Hanifin or Hamilton, plus Kylington and Valimaki ready on the left and Andersson ready on the right. We would have 3M in cap space opening up right now, and that's assuming we don't get a pick for del zotto. The Ducks got a 6th for him.

It's all retrospect, but if you're gonna sign a not-cheap bottom pair guy to be a 5/4, don't commit three years to that guy.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

We would have had RD Brodie in 2017-18 .

NSFW!

[

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Rando

NSFW!

[

Gulutzan didn't give Gulutzan Hamilton, Brodie, Hamonic, and Stone and expect to make it work. Treliving did.

[Rando]

This will throw the topic so far off, down a debate no one is interested in hearing again but Glen Gulutzan was the one who kept the pairing together for the entire season despite never working.

We wouldn't have had RD Brodie, that's not where GG wanted him. Full stop.

[Flash Walken]

I think Yelesin's getting a serious look in camp and it might be a situation where he and Kylington battle it out all year.

His cap hit in comparison might be a factor for him though. Who knows what the Flames cap situation will look like on october 1.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Rando

This will throw the topic so far off, down a debate no one is interested in hearing again but Glen Gulutzan was the one who kept the pairing together for the entire season despite never working.

We wouldn't have had RD Brodie, that's not where GG wanted him. Full stop.

I am no Gulutzan apologist, but he was dealt a hand of four RD and two LD (plus a non NHLer in Bartkowski). Treliving traded for a RD in Hamonic and signed a RD in Stone when he had Hamilton and Brodie. There is no disputing that Tre's role in this was more significant - Gulutzan's 2nd best natural LD that year was Brett Kulak who was effectively a rookie in his first full season.

[VladtheImpaler]

I think the problem for Treliving (and, to be fair, most GM's) is that he (still? Maybe now, I hope) hasn't figured out that you don't pay spares. You pay stars and there are always enough replacement level players kicking around in bargain basement UFA, waivers and Europe to fill out a roster. When Stone was signed, there was no compelling reason to give him that contract. The Oilers, yes, had a reason to do it because their D sucks; the Flames had enough better D-men that he would never be top 4, so why pay him AND give him term???
The rosters are top heavy - you fill out the bottom with entry-level contracts and bargains. Signing this Stone keeps you from signing the other Stone because you paid an extra $2.5M for a spare. When you have several of those, you are really in trouble. The Flames are very fortunate that their top end is relatively cheap (which is a credit to Treliving), but we shall see how Tkachuk impacts that...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Biggest issue with the deal from day one was that it was 1 year too long.

At the time you had Brodie, Hamilton, Hamonic, Giordano, all signed through 19-20.

And Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington, Fox, etc looking like they could be aiming to crack the lineup by 19-20.

The signing was fine because they did need that 2 year stop gap to bridge from that offseason to now, but it always looked like it was 1 year too long from the second it was signed based on the organization depth.



I'm not keeping tabs but when it comes to UFA signings across the league but I would guess they are right more than 50% of the time based on just looking at the Flames transactions over the last couple years.

I just look at the players in the Flames organization that "Advanced Stats" guys were adamant were bad players that shouldn't be signing / re-signing to long term contracts / Flames shouldn't have acquired here to start with (over the last 5 seasons).

Russell, Stone, Brouwer, Engelland, Bouma, Bollig, Colborne, Lazar, Hamonic

I think in that group really Engelland (fairly good bottom pairing D), and Hamonic (okay player but advanced stats folks thought acquisition cost was too high) were the ones you could say they were "wrong" about. So that's like 80% of the time.

And then if you look at the guys advanced stats were fond of that they were mad we either let go, or were happy when we acquired (or both in the case of Hamilton).

Byron, Frolik, Ryan, Hamilton (both times), Czarnik,

Only one there that I think there that the advanced stats group was probably wrong about was the initial hate of the return from the Hamilton trade to Carolina. The rest of the guys have probably been fine, Czarnik wasn't as good as they thought he'd be but not a boat anchor at all.

So much better than 50% there IMO.

You have to make the comparisons relative to the overall view.

Russell, as expected
Stone, as expected
Brouwer, terrible
Engelland, good
Bouma, good for a while until injuries did him in
Bollig, blah
Colborne, clock hit midnight
Lazar, bad
Hamonic, very good

so I would not give the advanced stats praise there, relative to the overall view

on the good side:

Byron, lots of us liked
Frolik, as advertised
Ryan, really good
Hamilton, not nearly as good as the stats suggest
Czarnik, was a disappointment

again, I fail to see how the stats group did any better here

some right, some wrong, some in the middle - almost random, at it were

[Rando]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I am no Gulutzan apologist, but he was dealt a hand of four RD and two LD (plus a non NHLer in Bartkowski). Treliving traded for a RD in Hamonic and signed a RD in Stone when he had Hamilton and Brodie. There is no disputing that Tre's role in this was more significant - Gulutzan's 2nd best natural LD that year was Brett Kulak who was effectively a rookie in his first full season.

I'll post once more on the topic because it's not all that interesting at this point and it's thrown the thread way off topic, then you can have the last reply.

GG had been hired for a couple weeks at that point, no doubt he and Treliving had had many discussions before being hired and many after about how he saw the D pair. No doubt he wanted Brodie on TJ's "natural" left side. Treliving signed Stone but GG wanted Brodie on that side, and kept him there the entire season. If Glen wanted Brodie to remain on the right you might've seen someone else signed.