Francis with Kerr: Who is going?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I
Anyways my intent wasn't to turn this into a trade Johnny thread, as the broader point was that the Flames have too many passive guys and to change the problems, they probably need to change something significant with the core. And I don't think Johnny should automatically be withheld from that possibility.

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Good point. I don't think they can win with him as their BEST player and he therefore may also be the best bullet in the chamber they have to try and acquire that guy they do need.

While I don't agree with it, I had no issue with talking about trading Gaudreau if the return was worth it (also don't think that's realistic).

It was the "I'm not convinced he's a guy you win with." quip.

Revising that to say you can't win with him as your best player is fair. Johnny is our best player because he's doing most of the heavy lifting himself right now (in on over a third of the team's offense). It stands to reason that needs to be spread around a lot more for us to be successful.

I think that will come with progression from other players currently on the team.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The closest situation this reminds me of is Philly years ago deciding they couldn't win with Carter and Richards. So they dealt them both and did well in that deal (Voracek and Simmonds) though it is worth noting the Kings DID win particularly with Carter.

But that's the type of chemistry change type of deal I think we are speculating on here. They are rare though.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Well there's some definite Hyperbole going on surrounding the defense of Gaudreau.

Who the hell is calling him a talentless loser? No one. Thats who.

So one side is completely closed minded about trading Gaudreau, thats fine.

While other are at least trying to converse about the idea. I honestly have not seen ANYONE actively wishing to trade Gaudreau. Just open to the idea.

Exactly thank for help clarifying
Wait how are we on the same side of a debate?
That seems wrong.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Most teams that win have elite two way players
Johnny isn’t that
Is he more like Phil Kessel or Anze Kopitar
I think kessel is a very fair comparison

What the....

Also Phil Kessel almost won the Conn Smythe.

[GullFoss]

The flames could also address this buy bringing in leaders that want to win. Ex - add Iginla, Tavares, Sutter. Now you have a team that has sufficient engagement without getting rid of anyone (except Gully).

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by zamler

What the....

Also Phil Kessel almost won the Conn Smythe.

Sure but clearly he has excelled in Pittsburgh because he isn't "The Man".
Do you disagree? What makes Johnny different from Phil?

[nik-]

The problem is you started your premise with suggesting you don't win with Gaudreau as opposed to a team doesn't win if he's your only top guy.

There's a chasm in there.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The closest situation this reminds me of is Philly years ago deciding they couldn't win with Carter and Richards. So they dealt them both and did well in that deal (Voracek and Simmonds) though it is worth noting the Kings DID win particularly with Carter.

But that's the type of chemistry change type of deal I think we are speculating on here. They are rare though.

I brought the Philly thing up a month or two ago and the rebuttal was "Philly never won a cup". While true I think all the teams involved in the shake up were all the better for it. Except CLB who just seemed like a pit stop for Carter where no gas was pumped but instead syphoned.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Right. Because all we would get is rusty hubcaps. Yeah, that’s what people are saying. Good take.

I get what you're saying but you are rarely going to replace a superstar's production.

Johnny is the straw that stirs this drink. If you thought our powerplay was bad before....

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The closest situation this reminds me of is Philly years ago deciding they couldn't win with Carter and Richards. So they dealt them both and did well in that deal (Voracek and Simmonds) though it is worth noting the Kings DID win particularly with Carter.

But that's the type of chemistry change type of deal I think we are speculating on here. They are rare though.

And the Flyers are a perennial bubble team lol

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Muta

I would be cautious about speaking in absolutes here regarding who's coasting / packing it in and who isn't. None of us on this board are in that inner circle. We like to think we are, but we aren't. The only time we'll really be able to somewhat guess properly is what a player or coach officially leaves the organization.

I would hate having my name out there as someone who just wanted to 'stat pad', when I, and all my teammates, know that is not the case. What a ####ty situation to be cast into.

This is precisely the kind of thing that makes a lot of players want to play in a quieter US market.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Locke

What a talentless loser! How fast do you think we can trade him?

Thats hyperbole.

Nobody thinks Gaudreau lacks talent or is a loser.

Fact is even with him putting up 78 and 84 points in the past three seasons the Flames played 4 playoff games and won 0.

It's the lack of talent on the rest of the roster. There is also a serious asset void now which is going to stop the Flames from being able to add talent. With Gaudreau you really only have 4 years left to get it done.

I personally don't think this group is good enough. Even if theu move out others...I don't think you can make it good enough to entice him to stay.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by nik-

The problem is you started your premise with suggesting you don't win with Gaudreau as opposed to a team doesn't win if he's your only top guy.

There's a chasm in there.

Indeed which is why I've since clarified, though many people understood the point I was making.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Well there's some definite Hyperbole going on surrounding the defense of Gaudreau.

Who the hell is calling him a talentless loser? No one. Thats who.

So one side is completely closed minded about trading Gaudreau, thats fine.

While other are at least trying to converse about the idea. I honestly have not seen ANYONE actively wishing to trade Gaudreau. Just open to the idea.

Exactly.

I don’t want to trade him.

But this ‘process’ doesn’t seem to be working. Set aside the question of what exactly BT knows about a championship winning process, lol. This team is based on BTs theory. The theory seems to be false. So he should adjust it.

How this team is built can’t win a championship. So it needs big changes. Maybe not Johnny, because every great team has its elite guys that don’t really get their noses in it.

I don’t know what the answer is, but BT should be open to considering everything.

[Freddy]

Had Calgary already been a deep team when Gaudreau graduated from college he would have been the cherry on top that could’ve been the difference, but relying on him for 40% of your offence and drawing up team strategy around him isn’t going to win championships because he isn’t rugged enough to play 82 regular season games plus 16 wins in the playoffs. I think if the Flames can find an American east coast team willing to part with an elite and rugged young player (regardless of position) you make that deal and add it to your core of emerging talent.
It’s hard to trade away such an elite player in Gaudreau, but I don’t see the fit here with where the organization is in the rebuild. I just hope we get elite for elite in the exchange.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sure but clearly he has excelled in Pittsburgh because he isn't "The Man".
Do you disagree? What makes Johnny different from Phil?

this is a good point! Who's team is this?

The ducks are Getlaf's team. The preds are Josi/Subban's team. The penguins are Crosby's team. The hawks are Toew's team. The Bruins are Bergeron's team. The leafs are babcock's team. The Lightening are Stamkos's team. The Kings are Kopitar's team.

Who's team is this?

[SportsJunky]

Ferland is a very 'even keel' guy now. I wonder if that has anything to do with his sobriety? Stay away from the highs and lows? Don't play angry? I don't know how recovery works for a pro athlete who maybe needs to be on the edge to be his most effective.

Anyway, I wonder if this puts him in the "not a team guy" camp as seen by outsiders. Probably not an accurate read when you consider he set career highs this year.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

this is a good point! Who's team is this?

The ducks are Getlaf's team. The preds are Josi/Subban's team. The penguins are Crosby's team. The hawks are Toew's team. The Bruins are Bergeron's team. The leafs are babcock's team. The Lightening are Stamkos's team. The Kings are Kopitar's team.

Who's team is this?

Gulatzan's, unfortunately. Soon it will likely be Tkachuk's team.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I brought the Philly thing up a month or two ago and the rebuttal was "Philly never won a cup". While true I think all the teams involved in the shake up were all the better for it. Except CLB who just seemed like a pit stop for Carter where no gas was pumped but instead syphoned.

This was the Carter deal

2011-Jun-23 Traded from Philadelphia Flyers to Columbus Blue Jackets for Jakub Voracek, round 1 pick in the 2011 draft (Sean Couturier) and round 3 pick in the 2011 draft (Nick Cousins)

that's the type of deal I'm talking about here. The fact the Flyers haven't won has little to do with this deal. It seems like it was positive.

And then here's the Richards deal

2011-Jun-23 Traded from Philadelphia Flyers with Rob Bordson to Los Angeles Kings for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn and round 2 pick in the 2012 draft (Devin Shore)

They did VERY well in these trades.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sure but clearly he has excelled in Pittsburgh because he isn't "The Man".
Do you disagree? What makes Johnny different from Phil?

You don't trade away a Phil Kessel caliber player unless you are tanking and set to do a total rebuild. Like Toronto.