[PGT] Kings 3 Flames 0

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Corral

Sure, but the point stands. Whiffing on your #4 overall pick - if it turns out to be such - is a major setback for the Flames and this group as a contender.

And there is LOTS of reasons besides Bennett to question the Flames scouting department. We are one of the worst at it. So if Bennett is a bust, no real surprise.

who would you have picked at the time?
pick 5) Del Colle, 0gp
pick 6) Virtanen, 135gp, 35p
pick 7) fleury. 61gp 12p
pick 8) nylander 179gp, 128p (would be a good pick but definitely would be a reach at 4th
Pick 9) Ehlers, 229gp, 158p (would be a good pick too)
Pick 10) Ritchie 180gp, 57p really 3rd line guy

unlike bennett, Nylander and Ehlers have had a chance to play with good linemates

with looking back at this draft there is not much from the any round too amazing... I don't get why people are so all about draft picks and trading decent players (Brodie) for a draft pick. Draft picks are great when rebuilding, but if your not in a full rebuild there best value is likely trading (as long as it is a younger asset).

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Tiger

who would you have picked at the time?
pick 5) Del Colle, 0gp
pick 6) Virtanen, 135gp, 35p
pick 7) fleury. 61gp 12p
pick 8) nylander 179gp, 128p (would be a good pick but definitely would be a reach at 4th
Pick 9) Ehlers, 229gp, 158p (would be a good pick too)
Pick 10) Ritchie 180gp, 57p really 3rd line guy

unlike bennett, Nylander and Ehlers have had a chance to play with good linemates

with looking back at this draft there is not much from the any round too amazing... I don't get why people are so all about draft picks and trading decent players (Brodie) for a draft pick. Draft picks are great when rebuilding, but if your not in a full rebuild there best value is likely trading (as long as it is a younger asset).

How many points did Bennett have while on the top line this year with Johnny and Monahan? Or are they not good players?

I hate this argument. We drafted bennett to produce, irrespective of his linemates. That is not at all what has happened during his career. It's not the team's fault he needs perfect conditions to produce (even meagerly). That's a Bennett problem, and one he needs to work on this summer.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by colbym72

Its not a TERRIBLE team. Its a team on the bubble right now that has some very good young pieces in its core. Arizona is terrible. What Buffalo has dealt with for years is terrible

This "bubble" team needs one more win this year (or OT loss) to ensure that is has more points in the Gulutzan era than it did in the final two years under Hartley (when I guess it was also a "bubble" team, albeit with younger, less experienced players and they still had a 1st, 4 2nds, 2 3rds, and a 5th round pick)

I say the best chance at a win (or OT loss) to beat Hartley's final two years is the Arizona game. That will be a battle, but it is definitely winnable. Then (if we win) we can average 88 points a season under GG, instead of the paltry 87 points a season we averaged in the final two years of Hartley.

The key is understanding the process. If we can improve by one point per year every two years, we can become a 100 point team on average by 2042. Stick to the longterm process, do not be distracted.

https://www.nhl.com/news/flames-sign...ct/c-289209824

It is like Brad said in the above mentioned article

"We know there's steps to go through and a process to go through. We want to get there as fast as we can without shipping out our future for short term gain"

If we lose our final five games we will avoid the short term gain (vis-a-vis the average of the final two Hartley years). If we win one of the final five games we will have a small short terms gain in exchange for shipping out our future. In fairness to Brad, he said that a couple months before he traded away a 1st, two 2nds and a 3rd.

[dino7c]

Any team would have taken Bennett at four...to say otherwise is stupid.

There was a concensus top four

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Bennett is too young to be called a bust.

I agree. I think, once he gets his man strength, he’s going to be a handful for the opposition. He’s already a tough little sob. In another year or two, he’s gonna be a real problem out there. That goes for Tkachuk, too.

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Tiger

who would you have picked at the time?
pick 5) Del Colle, 0gp
pick 6) Virtanen, 135gp, 35p
pick 7) fleury. 61gp 12p
pick 8) nylander 179gp, 128p (would be a good pick but definitely would be a reach at 4th
Pick 9) Ehlers, 229gp, 158p (would be a good pick too)
Pick 10) Ritchie 180gp, 57p really 3rd line guy

unlike bennett, Nylander and Ehlers have had a chance to play with good linemates

with looking back at this draft there is not much from the any round too amazing... I don't get why people are so all about draft picks and trading decent players (Brodie) for a draft pick. Draft picks are great when rebuilding, but if your not in a full rebuild there best value is likely trading (as long as it is a younger asset).

Ehlers for sure. Hindsight and all, but he impresses me every time i watch the Jets. i think he generates a lot of scoring plays - he's not just a beneficiary of good linemates.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Tiger

who would you have picked at the time?
pick 5) Del Colle, 0gp
pick 6) Virtanen, 135gp, 35p
pick 7) fleury. 61gp 12p
pick 8) nylander 179gp, 128p (would be a good pick but definitely would be a reach at 4th
Pick 9) Ehlers, 229gp, 158p (would be a good pick too)
Pick 10) Ritchie 180gp, 57p really 3rd line guy

unlike bennett, Nylander and Ehlers have had a chance to play with good linemates

with looking back at this draft there is not much from the any round too amazing... I don't get why people are so all about draft picks and trading decent players (Brodie) for a draft pick. Draft picks are great when rebuilding, but if your not in a full rebuild there best value is likely trading (as long as it is a younger asset).

Lets not make excuses for Bennett. The reason he isn't playing with our top guys is because the coaching staff, like everybody else, sees that he lacks hockey IQ. Sure in juniors you can get away with that and rely on skill and finishing ability, but at the NHL game if you can't think the game, you are dead in the water.

To the point of not selecting him at 4 and picking somebody else? I specifically remember Nylander being the #1 ranked prospect early in the year and of course he fell as the year progressed. Maybe i'm just shocked at how bad Bennett actually thinks the game and how our scouting staff wasn't able to pick up on that prior.

Its unfortunate but I don't think Bennett will ever amount to anything significant in the NHL, and the hope when you draft in the top 5 is you get exactly that. You can't teach hockey IQ, I would sell while he has an ounce of value.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by colbym72

Its not a TERRIBLE team. Its a team on the bubble right now that has some very good young pieces in its core. Arizona is terrible. What Buffalo has dealt with for years is terrible

No, the Flames aren't terrible. They aren't the Coyotes or Sabres.

They're the Islanders and Hurricanes. So... yay?

[Kybb79]

Bennett was the right pick at 4. Hartley played him with Backs which looked promising his rookie year. Then BT hired that idiot GG who had no clue what to do with him. He ruined the kid.

[Kybb79]

Flames should have a fire sale minus Johhny and Tkackuk. This team sucks#!! GG sure wrecked this team.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Kybb79

Flames should have a fire sale minus Johhny and Tkackuk. This team sucks#!! GG sure wrecked this team.

Which is exactly why you don't have a fire sale. A new coach with an actual NHL system that uses the strengths of the players likely sees this team have a quick and successful turnaround. Try a good coach first, then make sweeping changes. I'd be more interested in seeing a new coach, Brodie moved for a scoring winger, and then a promotion of several of the kids from the farm before I make wholesale changes to this team. It's good on paper. Find a guy that can use the talent.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

No, the Flames aren't terrible. They aren't the Coyotes or Sabres.

They're the Islanders and Hurricanes. So... yay?

I don't think the Islanders or Hurricanes have top forwards and defensemen like the Flames. Heck you can argue the Flames even have superior goaltending than both of these teams. You are selling the Flames a little short here. I get that you are bored with the current roster and want major moves but that's just not going to happen nor should it.

[Otto-matic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think the Islanders or Hurricanes have top forwards and defensemen like the Flames. Heck you can argue the Flames even have superior goaltending than both of these teams. You are selling the Flames a little short here. I get that you are bored with the current roster and want major moves but that's just not going to happen nor should it.

I'd say the Flames are more like the Stars.

They both have top talent and goaltenders but just can't seem to put it together. Once they do though, they could make some real noise in the West.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Kybb79

Flames should have a fire sale minus Johhny and Tkackuk. This team sucks#!! GG sure wrecked this team.

I love Gaudreau but if I was in a position where I could protect only one player, it would be Tkackuk.

In a heartbeat.

I would even go to the extent where I would finally learn how to spell his name.

[Jason14h]

The Flames aren't terrible, but an argument can be made they are in a terrible situation.

The core just proved they can't get it done, and there's no short term help coming.

[Classic_Sniper]

The 2014 draft turned out pretty bad for the Flames. Bennett is looking more and more like a disappointment as the season chugs along, hunter smith and mason mcdonald are massive busts. Hickey is gonzo. Just a brutal draft considering how high we picked.

Scouts should’ve had Bennett flagged, no dynamic offensive qualities, questionable hockey iq, had penalty problems before he was even drafted. When you have more minor penalties then you have points, you’re not helping your team win games.

[Toonage]

They knew he was a ##### disturber, that was part of why they drafted him.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think the Islanders or Hurricanes have top forwards and defensemen like the Flames. Heck you can argue the Flames even have superior goaltending than both of these teams. You are selling the Flames a little short here.

I meant in terms of results - hovering between bottom third of the league and average.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I get that you are bored with the current roster and want major moves but that's just not going to happen nor should it.

Nothing to do with boredom. I think some fans are eager to place all the blame for this season on the coaching so they can imagine a season next year where the Flames have a big rebound with a new coach. My takeaway from this season is the Flames core has some serious weaknesses in two-way play and stepping up in big games. I think the Flames need a re-tool not because I'm bored, but because I can't keep deluding myself that this a great roster that just needs a better coach to reach its potential.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The 2014 draft turned out pretty bad for the Flames. Bennett is looking more and more like a disappointment as the season chugs along, hunter smith and mason mcdonald are massive busts. Hickey is gonzo. Just a brutal draft considering how high we picked.

And the Smith and McDonald picks aren't bad just in hindsight - people here were calling them bad picks the moment they were announced. It really is remarkable how the Flames have hung onto a scouting staff that has proven itself to be so incompetent. There have been drafts when a fan at home making the picks using the Hockey News rankings would have done better - much better - than the Flames.

Maybe ownership doesn't want to pay for top-flight scouts. I don't know. It is interesting that when asked to comment on the strength of the Jets prospects pipeline, Cheveldayoff credited ownership with "recognizing that spending on scouting is an investment, not an expense." Presumably, that belief isn't shared by all teams. I'd be curious to see a league comparison of how much the teams spend on scouting.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Nothing to do with boredom. I think some fans are eager to place all the blame for this season on the coaching so they can imagine a season next year where the Flames have a big rebound with a new coach. My takeaway from this season is the Flames core has some serious weaknesses in two-way play and stepping up in big games. I think the Flames need a re-tool not because I'm bored, but because I can't keep deluding myself that this a great roster that just needs a better coach to reach its potential.

This team is working hard, but can't score worth a damn. Without Tkachuck we were losing, without Monahan we were losing and without Gaudreau we're losing. It's clear as day this is a poorly constructed roster and even Treliving himself knew this team was going to struggle to score goals. Now he knows exactly what he needs to fix and if he doesn't, his head should be on the chopping block. Too many whiffs on players and the RW depth going into this season was atrocious.