Francis: Tire Fire

[flizzenflozz]

I'd be curious what a highlight package video ala AC would show for Hamonic for this year. I get he's not a point stud but he has been a giant whiff for me this year in every part of is game. I love the feel good story as much as anyone but show me ONE or TWO good minutes of combined footage to make me think otherwise. I am looking for a positive where one may not exist.
I think a Hathaway or Brouwer promo video is longer..

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

Originally Posted by flizzenflozz

I'd be curious what a highlight package video ala AC would show for Hamonic for this year. I get he's not a point stud but he has been a giant whiff for me this year in every part of is game. I love the feel good story as much as anyone but show me ONE or TWO good minutes of combined footage to make me think otherwise. I am looking for a positive where one may not exist.
I think a Hathaway or Brouwer promo video is longer..

Have you not been watching the games? I think Hamonic has been great defensively, especially during the second half. If I had one gripe about his game, it's that I wish he'd play a little meaner.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Like who? What top dollar talented player on the Flames isn't living up to his contract?

bottom six players? yeah they got to choose the best bottom six players from 30 teams while we have Hathaway, Glass, and Lomberg playing

Vegas has more talent that half the league...they aren't just working hard every night

I want to re-enforce this.

Our top dollar players:

Gaudreau, $6.75m: Career season, PPG player, Art Ross Trophy contention for much of the year.

Giordano, $6.75m: Anchor's the team's defence. Top PK and PP blue liner. Makes anyone he plays with better, and likely to hit 40 points.

Monahan, $6.375m: 30 goals, career high in points. Was top 10 in goals until whatever nagging injury he's dealing with came along. Has tailed off, however.

Hamilton, $5.575m: Among league leaders in goals by a defenceman, One of very few plus players on this team. Certainly improved by Gio's presence. Also badly misused by the coach.

Brodie, $4.65m: Bad, bad year. Still puts up some points, but just a disaster otherwise. Misused by the coach.

Brouwer, $4.5 million: If you can't get someone to take him for a 7th round pick at 50% retained, then buy him out. Net negative player who makes everyone around him worse.

Smith, $4.25m: Great until just before his injury. Overworked by the coach, but also our team MVP for most of the year.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think it is valid to say that the Flames are getting good value for money when it comes to their top players. Which leaves the open question though - are their top players good enough?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think it is valid to say that the Flames are getting good value for money when it comes to their top players. Which leaves the open question though - are their top players good enough?

Yes the top players are good enough as they have an 80+ point scoring winger, 30+ goal center, a 25+ goal sandpaper winger, and a top goal scoring defenseman. All under 25 years old which has to be the envy of most of the league. It's the other guys that aren't. Backlund is so-so as a 2nd line center. Frolik is miscast in top 6 as is Ferland. The defense on paper is really good and it's a matter of a coach making better use of their skills to get them playing to the level you would expect. Outside of the winger situation the goaltending is once again a question mark. You can't keep blaming your top players over and over when your goaltenders are letting in soft goals on what's been almost a nightly basis since the all-star break.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think it is valid to say that the Flames are getting good value for money when it comes to their top players. Which leaves the open question though - are their top players good enough?

Talent-wise? Yes. Playing the way you need to in order to win when the going gets tough? No.

Some here think that can be fixed with coaching. Others think core pieces have to be moved to change the culture.

[Resolute 14]

I dunno Jiri. That question sounds a lot like asking if Connor McDavid is good enough because the Oilers are still bad.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio and Hamilton are definitely good enough. So is Tkachuk, and he's still cheap. And they could be better if they were utilized properly. Hamilton and Tkachuk being added to the top PP unit at a far earlier time could very well have translated to more goals and more wins.

The bigger issue is the supporting cast. Backlund and Frolik took steps back - which should have been expected given the years they were coming off of. Bennett started off abysmally, largely because of improper usage and has remained inconsistent. Though when 35% of his ice time at 5 on 5 is with Hathaway and Brouwer - neither of whom generate offence - There is perhaps not much of a surprise there. I don't think you could have asked much more of Jankowski this year. The fourth line has been abysmal. On defence, the Brodie-Hamonic pairing just hasn't worked. Third pair has been solid for what it is.

IMO, improve that supporting cast, but most especially, improve the system and player usage, and yes, you have a team that easily makes the playoffs.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Talent-wise? Yes. Playing the way you need to in order to win when the going gets tough? No.

Some here think that can be fixed with coaching. Others think core pieces have to be moved to change the culture.

I agree with this. The really good teams, for the most part, have best players who are good at two-way hockey. The Flames do not have those types of best players.
We have players good offensively (Johnny, Sean, Hamilton, Brodie)
We have players good defensively (Hamonic, Backlund, Frolik)

We don't have players that are good at both, for the most part. (Exceptions: Gio, Tkachuk)

Anyone disagree? And is this not something people see as an issue?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I dunno Jiri. That question sounds a lot like asking if Connor McDavid is good enough because the Oilers are still bad.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio and Hamilton are definitely good enough. So is Tkachuk, and he's still cheap. And they could be better if they were utilized properly. Hamilton and Tkachuk being added to the top PP unit at a far earlier time could very well have translated to more goals and more wins.

The bigger issue is the supporting cast. Backlund and Frolik took steps back - which should have been expected given the years they were coming off of. Bennett started off abysmally, largely because of improper usage and has remained inconsistent. Though when 35% of his ice time at 5 on 5 is with Hathaway and Brouwer - neither of whom generate offence - There is perhaps not much of a surprise there. I don't think you could have asked much more of Jankowski this year. The fourth line has been abysmal. On defence, the Brodie-Hamonic pairing just hasn't worked. Third pair has been solid for what it is.

IMO, improve that supporting cast, but most especially, improve the system and player usage, and yes, you have a team that easily makes the playoffs.

Sorry I just don't agree, for the reasons that Cliff outlines and that I expanded on.
Edit: I should clarify I agree that supporting cast needs to be materially improved. But I also am beginning to worry that the top end of the team doesn't offer enough of a complete game.

[Classic_Sniper]

The critics and the fanbase drive me crazy sometimes. I’ve said it before and I’ll say if again, this is shaping up just like the Iggy era all over again. Just blame the best players on this team because they can’t do it all by themselves. Idiots like Francis don’t understand that Gaudreau only plays 19 of the 60 minutes is a game. If Gaudreau could play 60 minutes a game, then we probably wouldn’t lose.

Gaudreau figures in on 40% of the team’s offense, second only to McDavid. Oh of course he must be the problem. Just awful analysis. When Iggy was shipped out, he went to a team where he was just one of the guys. That team had many players as talented as Iggy. That’s how you win in this league, having many of these guys. Don’t blame the player because the GM’s don’t understand how to build winning teams as this franchise has showed us the last 3 decades.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sorry I just don't agree, for the reasons that Cliff outlines and that I expanded on.
Edit: I should clarify I agree that supporting cast needs to be materially improved. But I also am beginning to worry that the top end of the team doesn't offer enough of a complete game.

Well, Gaudreau is what he is. And that's fine. Monahan was showing signs of becoming a good all-around centre under Hartley. That's just another area where Gulutzan's presence has caused a regression, imo. And, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, he's actually been fairly effective as a penalty killer in limited minutes both this year and last. So the capability is there. To my mind, it again comes down to coaching, system and usage.

Though yes, we definitely need another top-6 player with an abundance of sandpaper regardless.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The critics and the fanbase drive me crazy sometimes. I’ve said it before and I’ll say if again, this is shaping up just like the Iggy era all over again. Just blame the best players on this team because they can’t do it all by themselves. Idiots like Francis don’t understand that Gaudreau only plays 19 of the 60 minutes is a game. If Gaudreau could play 60 minutes a game, then we probably wouldn’t lose.

Gaudreau figures in on 40% of the team’s offense, second only to McDavid. Oh of course he must be the problem. Just awful analysis. When Iggy was shipped out, he went to a team where he was just one of the guys. That team had many players as talented as Iggy. That’s how you win in this league, having many of these guys. Don’t blame the player because the GM’s don’t understand how to build winning teams as this franchise has showed us the last 3 decades.

Focusing on only one half of the game is what makes for a poor analysis.
Frankly indeed it is similar to the Iginla era, at least the latter half. It turned into a terrible two way player and didn't lead by example.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think it is valid to say that the Flames are getting good value for money when it comes to their top players. Which leaves the open question though - are their top players good enough?

The top players are not good enough to carry a team to a Stanley Cup IMO. I have never thought they were.

Which makes the constant trading away of draft picks so disappointing. You can sometimes find an elite player without a top 3 pick. But will Lazar or Hamonic ever become such a player. Nope.

To win championships, you need to hit it out of the park with your own drafting and development, and get a little lucky. Not rely on other teams to do it for you.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The critics and the fanbase drive me crazy sometimes. I’ve said it before and I’ll say if again, this is shaping up just like the Iggy era all over again. Just blame the best players on this team because they can’t do it all by themselves. Idiots like Francis don’t understand that Gaudreau only plays 19 of the 60 minutes is a game. If Gaudreau could play 60 minutes a game, then we probably wouldn’t lose.

Gaudreau figures in on 40% of the team’s offense, second only to McDavid. Oh of course he must be the problem. Just awful analysis. When Iggy was shipped out, he went to a team where he was just one of the guys. That team had many players as talented as Iggy. That’s how you win in this league, having many of these guys. Don’t blame the player because the GM’s don’t understand how to build winning teams as this franchise has showed us the last 3 decades.

It's pretty insane. The fans and media don't value what they have here and never have. I remember when there was a rumour that Iginla would be traded for Mike Peca. Probably would have been one of the worst trades in NHL history had it happened. That's the type of weird insanity that has always surrounded Calgary. Our offensive guys are too successful at offense! We need what it takes to win!

I see the same type of stuff thrown around about Gaudreau and Monahan now and can't help but shake my head.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Igottago

It's pretty insane. The fans and media don't value what they have here and never have. I remember when there was a rumour that Iginla would be traded for Mike Peca. Probably would have been one of the worst trades in NHL history had it happened. That's the type of weird insanity that has always surrounded Calgary. Our offensive guys are too successful at offense! We need what it takes to win!

I see the same type of stuff thrown around about Gaudreau and Monahan now and can't help but shake my head.

Take a look at the teams that actually WIN championships and tell me you don't see the gap.

LA: Kopitar, Doughty
Boston: Bergeron, Chara
Pittsburgh: Crosby!
Chicago: Toews, Keith

Elite all around players that lead their teams by playing at both ends and do everything they can to win on and off the ice.

Tell me does Calgary REALLY have that? And if not, isn't a problem?

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Take a look at the teams that actually WIN championships and tell me you don't see the gap.

LA: Kopitar, Doughty
Boston: Bergeron, Chara
Pittsburgh: Crosby!
Chicago: Toews, Keith

Elite all around players that lead their teams by playing at both ends and do everything they can to win on and off the ice.

Tell me does Calgary REALLY have that? And if not, isn't a problem?

Stanley Cup contenders live and die by the success of their third line. Depth wins championships.

[Resolute 14]

Your point might be better made if you wren't relying on gross simplification, Jiri.

By all means, please continue listing those rosters beyond two players. Because if that's all it takes, you've already given Gio and Tkachuk as the right kind of guys.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Your point might be better made if you wren't relying on gross simplification, Jiri.

By all means, please continue listing those rosters beyond two players. Because if that's all it takes, you've already given Gio and Tkachuk as the right kind of guys.

Tkachuk gives me hope for the future as the guy that could be this
But right now their best players don’t deliver this
That’s my point

[Ryan Coke]

His much of a liability is the top line? I’d be interested in some stats for if they outscore their competition, and what their QoC is like. Are they really that bad?

And Backlund isn’t just a defensive guy, he is definitely a 2 way guy. Yes it would be great if he can get pushed down to the third line, but he isn’t just a defensive guy.

This is always the balancing act when assessing a struggling team....are all the players junk just because the team is bad? And as soon as the team starts to put it together and they see some success, suddenly we have some great players slotted well. It’s easy to do a baby toss with the bath water thing.

Ultimately I’d still like to see a coach bring some more accountability to all players, and preach an aggressive mindset both offensively and defensively, as opposed to a passive mindset at both ends of the rink.

[nik-]

A player like Gaudreau is amazing to have on your team, clearly, but a player like Gaudreau should never be "the man" on your team. Kane was never the man in Chicago and, as tired as the comparison is, that's really what Gaudreau should be. A star winger needs to be a sidekick. Of all teams, the Flames should know this.