Women-only spa’s ‘no male genitals’ rule ignites transgender debate

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

I didn't even think of that point of view - I assumed they didn't want to see the pre-op transgendered female naked. It's probably both.

Well, there is a pretty straightforward solution to that problem as well: don't look.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

We discriminate all the time, where should we draw the line?

Money, looks, physical abilities, mental abilities, religion and skill are a few of many things we use to discriminate.

This country still allows parents to discriminate by sending them to different schools, based on religion or elitism.

All of the characteristics, with the exception of religion, you listed can be changed with some reasonable degree of effort and are not generally considered to be deeply personal enough to warrant legal protection.

In any event, the law does not unequivocally prohibit discrimination. It just requires the discriminating party to justify the action creating discriminatory adverse effect.

[Bootsy]

Another straightforward solution is for people with male genitals to go to a spa that allows it.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Well, there is a pretty straightforward solution to that problem as well: don't look.

Oh agreed. I tend to think that it is easier and preferable for accommodations to be made (especially when reasonable) than for someone to change who they are.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Bootsy

Another straightforward solution is for people with male genitals to go to a spa that allows it.

I suspect that for someone who has struggled with her female gender identity for her entire life, to be told (for the millionth time) that she is not "woman enough" or "a real woman" is not that straightforward at all. Certainly a lot less straightforward than the solutions I proposed above.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Rubicant

Oh agreed. I tend to think that it is easier and preferable for accommodations to be made (especially when reasonable) than for someone to change who they are.

That is pretty much the principle underlying the entire human rights regime in Canada in a nutshell.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Ducay

I remember the good old days when there were 2 genders and anything in between was a mental illness. Now gender is fluid? My bio textbook must be obsolete

It wasn't the "good old days" for the transgendered.

Sometimes change isn't progress, but sometimes it really is.

[PsYcNeT]

"Good old days" might be the most privileged term possible.

[CliffFletcher]

What's remarkable about this issue is how much controversy it generates for the tiny number of people involved. I'd be shocked if we'd see 5 instances in Canada in a calendar year of a transgendered person getting naked at a spa.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

"Good old days" might be the most privileged term possible.

Make America Binary Again

[pylon]

Can't we just all agree that dongs flopping around kinda isn't good in any setting? Unless said environment calls for dong flopping. Like a men's locker room, an all-male strip show, nude beach or a bath house?

Like outside of those four instances, I cannot really find a scenario where I personally wanna see some dudes crotch cannon. Or where it should be out in public. Regardless of how he/she identifies, or what special interest is being offended, exposed penises just really aren't socially acceptable in North America, or most of the civilized world.

Even if it you are a post op trans male who was once female, I still really don't wanna be looking at your Johnson under any circumstance. And you really shouldn't be showing it to anyone who hasn't asked to see it.

I think the difference between casual female and male nudity is vastly different. I've been to topless beaches, and there is nothing remotely creepy about it. I feel the female breast in North America has been vastly over-sexualized, and it shouldn't be.

I have also been to all-nude beaches, and there is a massive difference in men and women at them. Just like at this spa, women aren't laying around with their legs spread wide open, in a mans case, your stuff is just all hanging out there. If a woman becomes aroused, it would be pretty damn hard to tell. With a man, well, that doesn't need explaining. And it is instantly uncomfortable, and gross for everyone not attracted to that person. If a woman were to lay with her legs splayed open, it would be equally inappropriate.

How bloody uncomfortable would it be in that room if the trans person became aroused for whatever reason, and was walking around with a giant throbbing erection? The women are just supposed to think that this is perfectly acceptable? That's not fair to ask of them.

[Makarov]

^ Again, your analysis in terms of the weight you attach to the very remote chance that someone might feel awkward or embarassed (which, Aa I previously suggested, has some pretty simple solutions anyway) versus the weight you attach to the very real likelihood that someone's dignity will be truly damaged feels completely wrong to me.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What's remarkable about this issue is how much controversy it generates for the tiny number of people involved. ...

What's more, we've never seen anything remotely close to this level of controversy and media attention to the much more profound and serious issues around disabled Canadians. I am involved in advocacy for the disabled and this bothers me a lot.

There are no good stats, but Canada LGBT population is loosely estimated at 30,000-40,000 people. Of those, transgendered population is a very small proportion, a few hundred to a thousand at most, I am guessing. There are 3,800,000 (!) disabled people in Canada going through an enormous physical and mental struggle every day of their lives; many of them surviving only on $1,500/month government assistance. I guess, their issues are just not sexy enough to be of interest to social media.

[Chell_King]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Just because there's more nuance involved in having a discussion about how some men feel more comfortable dressed and acting as women doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Your method involves telling outright lies to children about basic biology.

I wish my softball team could get some Transgender Sluggers to create more pulled pork sandwiches

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Makarov

^ Again, your analysis in terms of the weight you attach to the very remote chance that someone might feel awkward or embarassed (which, Aa I previously suggested, has some pretty simple solutions anyway) versus the weight you attach to the very real likelihood that someone's dignity will be truly damaged feels completely wrong to me.

It's pretty simple in my eyes.

No exposed wangs if you're in the womens spa. If your transgendered and still have your man bits, cover them up if you want to be there. It's not even remotely unreasonable, and more than fair to the transgendered individual, and a more than fair compromise for everyone involved.

No matter how hard the point is argued, it is still a mans penis and not a vagina. Regardless of what your brain is telling you, and how much you wish it wasn't there, it still is.

[Patek23]

I agree with the point above. Like being transgendered with male genetalia is going to get you weird looks no matter what change room your in. I can imagine that's extremely hard mentally. I think men in a men's change room would be a bit more okay with a transgender wang out then females in a women's locker room.

Most transgender women would probably go into the women's locker room and use a stall anyways. Which begs the question. This isn't a change room we're discussing in this thread it's a women's spa. So basically there is a pool area etc where women are laying around naked. Knowing your going in and going to cause a ruckus seems counter intuitive. There are co-ed nude spas out there as well where this wouldn't be an issue. Women are going to this women's only one because they don't want to see male genetalia which is fair. Why would a pre op transgender want to go force their wang out upon everyone else in the first place? As the only reason to go to this spa would be to be openly nude for your duration. Not just the changing period.

It's obviously an extremely rare thing of a person wanting to do this. Someone earlier arguing against the policy used this argument for it:

"My feelings supersede the feelings of others! Also my sexuality is the only correct sexuality."

How is this argument not just applicable back? The feelings of one person are more important then everyone else in there who is literally going and paying money so they don't have to see a wang regardless of what that person identifies as? Why would someone want to go in and cause that anyways if they weren't trying to make a spectacle of it?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

What's more, we've never seen anything remotely close to this level of controversy and media attention to the much more profound and serious issues around disabled Canadians. I am involved in advocacy for the disabled and this bothers me a lot.

There are no good stats, but Canada LGBT population is loosely estimated at 30,000-40,000 people. Of those, transgendered population is a very small proportion, a few hundred to a thousand at most, I am guessing. There are 3,800,000 (!) disabled people in Canada going through an enormous physical and mental struggle every day of their lives; many of them surviving only on $1,500/month government assistance. I guess, their issues are just not sexy enough to be of interest to social media.

I was talking with a co-worker about transgender change rooms a while ago, and she advocated renovating all the change rooms in Canada to add a third option. I pointed out that nowhere near half of change rooms and washrooms in Canada are wheelchair accessible, even though the number of Canadians in wheelchairs is at least an order of magnitude greater than the transgendered population.

I know people love to get riled up over hot-button issues and stark moral principles. But sometimes practical, utilitarian considerations need to be taken into account.

[Zarley]

If these transgendered chicks want to use this female spa, it seems entirely reasonable to me that they should buck up and get the hammer sliced off. Stop dinking around and commit to the female gender.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I know people love to get riled up over hot-button issues and stark moral principles. But sometimes practical, utilitarian considerations need to be taken into account.

That would be a good point if anyone was arguing the disabled shouldn't be allowed access to the same facilities as the able, but no one is arguing that. It's two different issues:

1. Are we doing enough for the disabled to bring about the equality of opportunity and access we have all agreed is appropriate?

2. Is it appropriate that the transgendered have equality of opportunity and access as those who identify their sex identically to their gender?

We should be doing more for the disabled, sure, but it's not an analogous situation, other than superficially.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I was talking with a co-worker about transgender change rooms a while ago, and she advocated renovating all the change rooms in Canada to add a third option. I pointed out that nowhere near half of change rooms and washrooms in Canada are wheelchair accessible, even though the number of Canadians in wheelchairs is at least an order of magnitude greater than the transgendered population.

I know people love to get riled up over hot-button issues and stark moral principles. But sometimes practical, utilitarian considerations need to be taken into account.

I take your point about the transgendered issue is one that affects a tiny minority of the population, but isn't it the same practical, utilitarian considerations and arguments that left more than half of the washrooms inaccessible to wheelchairs? Somehow, I would think that those two groups would be more like minded in their search for equality.