The Whoas! of Dougie Hamilton

[saXon]

Can we change the thread title aleady? It's an eyesore.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Enough of these weak feeble excuses for being unhappy with Hamilton.

Good players are good players regardless of what they're getting paid. Is Hamilton overpaid? Probably. Will he be underpaid by the time his contract is in the back half? That's the plan.

He's been one of the better defencemen on the Flames over the last three games. It's not saying much, but singling him out is dumb.

Now with 2 coaches there has been a mad panic to keep him away from anyone on the other team that has above average goal scoring ability.

If Hamilton was a solid #3 Gutzlan would not be thinking about breaking up Brodie - Gio. The only rationale to that move was to protect Hamilton.

Does not kill penalties.... ever...

He is not getting paid as a good defenseman ..... He is being paid as the best defenseman of his generation.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by ZedMan

Well you are technically correct because Aaron Ekblad is on the last year of his ELC, but he has already signed a contract where he will be paid 7.5M over his RFA years.

and


1: You think that Ekblad's contract is good?

2: Hamilton at age 23 is close to being as good as a 20 year old Ekblad?

[Buff]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Now with 2 coaches there has been a mad panic to keep him away from anyone on the other team that has above average goal scoring ability.

If Hamilton was a solid #3 Gutzlan would not be thinking about breaking up Brodie - Gio. The only rationale to that move was to protect Hamilton.

Does not kill penalties.... ever...

He is not getting paid as a good defenseman ..... He is being paid as the best defenseman of his generation.

That is how 2nd contracts are starting to work right now. Players are getting paid for potential, as long as they show some. Hamilton, right now, is not a $5.5M/year player. I'm confident that he will be, and then some, at the end of his contract. Overpaying early is the price you pay to retain young stars. The sports world will never be completely fair in terms of pay per production, so stop ragging on that point.

Hamilton is good, has not been a problem for this team, and will continue to get better.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Buff

That is how 2nd contracts are starting to work right now. Players are getting paid for potential, as long as they show some. Hamilton, right now, is not a $5.5M/year player. I'm confident that he will be, and then some, at the end of his contract. Overpaying early is the price you pay to retain young stars. The sports world will never be completely fair in terms of pay per production, so stop ragging on that point.

Hamilton is good, has not been a problem for this team, and will continue to get better.

What areas do you see Hamilton improving? What does he need to work on?

Skating

Strength

Conditioning

Shooting

Effort

Hockey sense


What is missing from his game that you are certain can be improved?

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

He isnt garbage just no wherw worth his contract. If he was getting paid 2 million this year i would be happy with his play. Quit applauding mediocrity.

Lol. I hope you know the season is a lot longer than 3 games...your posts indicate that for the rest of the season he won't improve at all and that's kinda foolish. Even by his current play, he's above 2 mil. He's been pretty decent defensively and he's not the only one not scoring on the team. Last year he proved to be worth his contract and if he plays at the same level, it's still good. Odds are that he's going to improve and then the contract will look even better.

I love the mediocrity line...I'm not really applauding it but I know that the season isn't done. Quit being so dramatic after 3 games, there's still a lot of hockey to be plaid.

[1991 Canadian]

Dougie Hamilton has the 17th highest cap hit for NHL defenceman. This is his 5th NHL season. I don't think it is unreasonable to have the conversation that he should be more than a good number 3 defenceman at this point.

He's 23. I still think he has room to grow. But I've said it before, there is something about his game that unnerves me. He bobbles the puck too much. He gives the puck away cheaply under minimal pressure. He doesn't use his speed and size to his advantage nearly enough.

I'm really hoping some coaching and goaltending stability allows him to work on some of the negatives in his game. He certainly has all the tools to be an elite 2-way defenceman.

[Hot_Flatus]

So we've got a young, mobile blueliner with size who is coming off of back to back 10+ goal, 40 point seasons and we are writing him off? Sure, he can be better but he's the least of the team's problems right now. How about the woeful excuse for forward depth for starters.

It took Giordano about 5 years to even touch the level of production/play Dougie hit three years ago. The kid has a ways to go but he's still an above average defenceman.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

enough with the crap that Hamilton is being paid what he is worth.

He is tied at 18-21 of the highest paid d-men in a 30 team league.

There are no Defensemen being paid for RFA years ahead of him. He is the Highest paid D-man in the league with RFA years in their contracts.


The #61 defenseman salary cap this season is 4.25. That is what the absolute best #3 d-man in the league should be getting paid.

It seems that the Flames have to paid a premium of at least 1.5M-2M for Hamilton


Hamilton's contract is so incredibly bad for what he has delivered to date it has upset the Flames structure.... Gaudreau/Gio are only geting paid 1M more than him!!! Monahan is only getting paid 600K more.


Nobody could possibly argue that Hamilton is anywhere close to the quality of player as Gio/Gaudreau or Monahan.

He is making Engelland's 2.9M look like a good contract.

Hamilton could win the Norris and you'd still crap on him. There's no point in arguing with you.

[RoughRiderRowdy]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Hamilton could win the Norris and you'd still crap on him. There's no point in arguing with you.

Grow up. Security

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

Grow up. Security

I'm sorry that my opinion differs from yours. Growing up now.

[SeanCharles]

I posted this in the Flames D core ranking thread but thought it could be of some use here as well:

The Flames top 3 of Gio, Brodie and Hamilton is easily in the top 5-10 in the league. Gio is arguably one of the best defencemen in the league, Brodie is on his way to usurping him as the best defencemen on the team and Hamilton is already a 40pt top 4 defenceman, which at his age is impressive - ppl keep forgetting this point.

Brodie and Hamilton are both young and still improving so the sky is the limit for these two.

Jokipakka and Engelland are good 5-6 options so we're really just missing a #4 guy.

I don't think I'm alone is saying I'm getting tired of all the negativity around certain Flames topics. Calm down, we still have an enviable defense core, Hamilton is not a bust, our goaltending and offence will get better, the team will play better when the new system is instilled throughout the lineup, and the coaching staff does not need to be dismissed this early into his tenure.

Keep things in perspective please, most of our top forwards missed training camp, its a new coach and system, we have a new goaltending tandem that are settling in too.

I told my brother, who was flipping out on Friday night, "don't judge the team based upon 2-3 game segments. Judge them after at least 10 games and go from there."

3 games out of 82 can, in theory, make or break a season but please keep in mind there are 79 left to be played and we have looked terrible. All that means is things will only get better because they are not as bad as the results would indicate.

Too many negative threads around here. I'm happy to be a Flames fan right now because this franchise is on the rise. Can we stop and appreciate that instead of nitpicking the 2-3 games to start the year?

We knew this would take time given all the factors. Just relax and lets regroup in a few weeks and see how they responded to this terrible start.

[FlameZilla]

Most defensemen don't even make the league until they're 23/24, so with 5 years under his belt already Hamilton is way ahead of the game. He's putting down incredibly good advanced stats so far this season, despite his team playing like hot garbage out of the starting blocks. You want to find a scapegoat? Look elsewhere.

[powderjunkie]

^ This. Not sure why people are expecting Doughty/Ekblad success at such a young age. 24 seems to be the breakout age for a lot of the best d-men in the league. Very few of them got there without growing pains.

[Anduril]

It's pretty arbitrary to compare 18th highest caphit versus the 61st...

Now when we use the power of blind context:

Spoiler!

List of caphits for players aged 21 to 26, between 4.5m and 9.5m
Reasons for that caphit range? Wanted to narrow down to potential top 2/4 pairing defensemen coming off of ELCs with high expectations. The age is strictly for those RFA bridge deals.

Obviously nothing comprehensive that can be concluded from this but when blindly looking at caphits for young defensemen out of their ELC deals in recent years, there's a spectrum between 5m and 6m, with the outliers either being established top pairing superstars (Doughty, Karlsson) or sweetheart deals/2nd pairing expectations (Brodie and Faulk respectively).

This shows that Hamilton is relatively near his peers (around 0.3m+). Looking at prior circumstances of his skillset and results as a Bruin, I can personally look at his contract and say "that's fair." Could easily nitpick 200k one way or another but as an expectation I look at the fact despite his performance as a 20 to 23yo in the league, he's still got another 10+ years as potentially an elite defenseman. So without claiming for whether this contract is bad/good, I think it's okay to sit back and watch how the next year and two will be when he starts to take his form as a developed defenseman.


Tl;Dr contract is understandable, Dougie is young, stop being patient af

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

What areas do you see Hamilton improving? What does he need to work on?

Skating

Strength

Conditioning

Shooting

Effort

Hockey sense


What is missing from his game that you are certain can be improved?

There seems to be a some consensus in opinion that Hamilton will be worth his contract on the back end. why?

Anyone wants to take a stab at explaining why Hamilton will improve with age?

Brodie was at the Hamilton level of performance at age 23...except he had picked up on how to use his assets to defend. He also needed time to reach critical body weight where he would not be physically dominated in the NHL.

Gio was 24-25 when he started playing as well as Hamilton is now. At 23 he played in the KHL where he worked on his skating. As a smaller NHL d-man he had to put on some muscle mass to be a solid NHLer. Somewhere around this time he decided that being in the top 5-10% in fitness in the NHL was worth the effort (Maybe influenced by Iginla)

[Buff]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There seems to be a some consensus in opinion that Hamilton will be worth his contract on the back end. why?

Anyone wants to take a stab at explaining why Hamilton will improve with age?

Brodie was at the Hamilton level of performance at age 23...except he had picked up on how to use his assets to defend. He also needed time to reach critical body weight where he would not be physically dominated in the NHL.

Gio was 24-25 when he started playing as well as Hamilton is now. At 23 he played in the KHL where he worked on his skating. As a smaller NHL d-man he had to put on some muscle mass to be a solid NHLer. Somewhere around this time he decided that being in the top 5-10% in fitness in the NHL was worth the effort (Maybe influenced by Iginla)

You claim that Brodie was at the Hamilton level of performance at age 23. Hamilton just turned 23 during this past offseason.

So, if Brodie and Giordano can improve with age, why can't Hamilton?

[Enoch Root]

ricardodw: you just asked why people think Hamilton will continue to improve (he will), and then talked about how Brodie and Giordano have continued to improve.

Do you not listen to yourself?

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There seems to be a some consensus in opinion that Hamilton will be worth his contract on the back end. why?

Anyone wants to take a stab at explaining why Hamilton will improve with age?

Brodie was at the Hamilton level of performance at age 23...except he had picked up on how to use his assets to defend. He also needed time to reach critical body weight where he would not be physically dominated in the NHL.

Gio was 24-25 when he started playing as well as Hamilton is now. At 23 he played in the KHL where he worked on his skating. As a smaller NHL d-man he had to put on some muscle mass to be a solid NHLer. Somewhere around this time he decided that being in the top 5-10% in fitness in the NHL was worth the effort (Maybe influenced by Iginla)

Gio didn't have a 40 point season until he was 27, Brodie was 24. Hamilton had his first at 21 and then followed it up with another one.

At 23 Gio had 16 points in 55 NHL games. Brodie had 28 in 104 games. Hamilton has 126 in 260 games. Hamilton's performance at 23 is years ahead of where Gio and Brodie were.

Why would he get better with age? Why does anyone get better with age? Prime age for forwards may be early 20s but it's pretty common knowledge defensemen really come into their Prime in their mid to late 20s, look at Giordano and Brodie for examples of this.

Experience is what makes for better defensemen because it is a learning process and the more you play the better you can get. To think that a 23 year old defensemen has topped out is just ignoring the common progression of the position. He is years ahead of where Gio and Brodie hit those kind of points totals and nothing has shown me that he is going to be some outlier to a normal progression curve. Sure he may have topped out already but statistically the chances of that are small.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Buff

You claim that Brodie was at the Hamilton level of performance at age 23. Hamilton just turned 23 during this past offseason.

So, if Brodie and Giordano can improve with age, why can't Hamilton?

Brodie and Gio had absolutely different starting points..... Brodie was likely close to 160 lbs when he was drafted. They both had a lot to work on to improve upon. Gio's initial way to the NHL was by being an agitator... He did not have the skill set to get drafted... not as a 18 year old and not as a 19 year old. These players had a list of things to work on.

Hamilton is a freak of nature being 6-5 and 200 as a 19 year old. He was 2-3 times better than Gio and or Brodie as a 18 year old... in 4-5 years Gio and Brodie caught up. As Flames fans we are expecting our best d-men to do better year after year. That is why we (as a group) turned on Russell last year. He had peaked out at the end of 2014-15.

Has Hamilton significantly improved from what he was as a 19 year old rookie?

Why the heck did he want out of Boston?

He has had 4 years of NHL coaching and sports psychologists.

What will he do differently this year over last year to make him better? Score more? will that win more games for the Flames?