a) Will he develop if he stays? My answer to that is yes. He has looked good thus far and does not look out of place. I think if he had scored a couple goals, he has had the chances, this place would be singing a different tune.
b) Are the Flames better with him, or without him? This answer is easy. He is better than any of the replacements available and will only get better as the year goes on.
I honestly can't understand how people want to send him down after 3 freaking games!! If the Flames are 3-0 with him, I doubt we are talking about this. It's not like he has been a passenger in these games. He has looked good.
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a) Will he develop if he stays? My answer to that is yes. He has looked good thus far and does not look out of place. I think if he had scored a couple goals, he has had the chances, this place would be singing a different tune.
b) Are the Flames better with him, or without him? This answer is easy. He is better than any of the replacements available and will only get better as the year goes on.
I honestly can't understand how people want to send him down after 3 freaking games!! If the Flames are 3-0 with him, I doubt we are talking about this. It's not like he has been a passenger in these games. He has looked good.
Even if the Flames were 9-0-0, it wouldn't matter that much because it's about the player when making these decisions. Is Tkachuk being developed for a supporting role or for a core piece? So you need to look at how many points he put up in the 9 games and how many minutes he played and how well the team did with him as that core piece. If it looks like he still needs development in these areas than you send him down to a developing league, not keep him in the business league
a) Will he develop if he stays? My answer to that is yes. He has looked good thus far and does not look out of place. I think if he had scored a couple goals, he has had the chances, this place would be singing a different tune.
b) Are the Flames better with him, or without him? This answer is easy. He is better than any of the replacements available and will only get better as the year goes on.
I honestly can't understand how people want to send him down after 3 freaking games!! If the Flames are 3-0 with him, I doubt we are talking about this. It's not like he has been a passenger in these games. He has looked good.
I agree, and I would like to add a significant observation to your first point: to my eye Tkachuk has improved over the course of the first three games. He looks like he is catching on to new things every day which is EXACTLY what you want your developing players to do. So long as he continues to show improvement I don't see how dispatching him back to juniour will in any way serve to benefit him in the long run.
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Originally Posted by woob
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Hockey isn't hockey and having nothing left to learn at a lower tier doesn't mean they don't have anything left to learn. Playing against boys will let him dominate (hopefully), have a good time and gain confidence. But skill wise it does next to nothing compared to the next level. This is of course assuming he has the skills to compete on a basic level in the NHL, which I think everyone agrees he can.
The progression of any skill-set is enhanced by reasonable difficulty. You wouldn't expect a 6 year old to ride moto-cross but keeping their training wheels on when they obviously have the skills, doesn't help them progress as much as taking a couple falls without them. Maybe the next 6 games will tell a different story, but based on pre-season and his first 3 games the time for training wheels is over and if he wants to progress he needs to compete against a better class of players, something he won't get in junior.
If anything they could send him to the World Juniors to compete against the best of his age group, but day to day in Jr is like playing checkers when you are preparing for chess.
A lot of great players struggle their draft+year in the juniors. It's not like he's guaranteed to dominate at unprecedented levels. Maybe if he broke OHL records last year I could see your point, but he could still improve upon his performance.
A lot of great players struggle their draft+year in the juniors. It's not like he's guaranteed to dominate at unprecedented levels. Maybe if he broke OHL records last year I could see your point, but he could still improve upon his performance.
I get it's not guarantee.. hence the (hopefully).. but what is the point at playing at a slower, lower level when he has shown he has the skill to play in the NHL.
His skating has been up to the rest of the team. His strength hasn't been a problem. He is going to dirty areas and straight to the front of the net. Breaking Junior scoring records are just as meaningless when looking at NHL performance, lots of Jr stars who fizzled in the NHL. I look at 1 thing, can he compete in the NHL? If so then his best place to improve is with an NHL team, even in fourth line minutes.. it worked out just fine for Joe Thorton.
Everything people point out against him tend to be timing and experience. Playing against a junior defenseman is nothing compared to having to deal with the real deal. If it turns out he can't keep up then yes, absolutely send him down. But after 3 games he looks more effective than half of the team, I just don't see how playing weaker competition can help him improve on that more than playing against the best in the world.
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I agree, and I would like to add a significant observation to your first point: to my eye Tkachuk has improved over the course of the first three games. He looks like he is catching on to new things every day which is EXACTLY what you want your developing players to do. So long as he continues to show improvement I don't see how dispatching him back to juniour will in any way serve to benefit him in the long run.
I don't see a lot of evidence that fast tracking 18 year old players in the NHL is overly beneficial. Sure there's some elite players that were too good to play in junior but that's not the case here. We make fun of the Oilers for fast tracking every 1st round pick and I kind of feel there's really no good reason to have him in the lineup this season as just fitting in and not looking out of place on a team that's winless in three games isn't enough. Shinkaruk or Poirier would probably be better served getting that spot IMO.
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I don't see a lot of evidence that fast tracking 18 year old players in the NHL is overly beneficial. Sure there's some elite players that were too good to play in junior but that's not the case here. We make fun of the Oilers for fast tracking every 1st round pick and I kind of feel there's really no good reason to have him in the lineup this season as just fitting in and not looking out of place on a team that's winless in three games isn't enough. Shinkaruk or Poirier would probably be better served getting that spot IMO.
It's not fast tracking him when he fits in fine.
What is he going to learn in Junior? Going to hammer in an extra year of learning Systems, Coverage and Playing styles that are irrelevant in the NHL?
The only valid reason that has been suggested for sending him down is to have him be "the guy" in London. Is being "the guy" really that valuable of experience considering he won't be counted on to be "the guy" in the NHL for 5 years? It's not like 25 year old Tkachuk will look back on to that one year he spent in junior 5-6 years ago and remember all the "leadership" skills he learned then. He'll learn how to be a leader in the NHL by growing in a league where he is surrounded by leaders.
Add the fact that playing in the NHL will be better for his development in pretty much every facet outside of leadership exposure and I think keeping him up is no brainer unless he really starts to struggle, which he hasn't yet.
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I thought that it depended on draft year...I could be wrong.
No, it's based on the player's age (or CHL experience). Any CHL player who turns 20 before the end of the calendar year in which a season starts can play in the AHL that season (which is why Poirier, Shinkaruk, and Andersson -- among others -- all played in the AHL at 19).
Also, any player who has played 4 full seasons in the CHL can be sent to the AHL without first being offered back to his junior team. This is uncommon because a player has to have been given Exceptional Player status at 15 in order to have 4 years in junior before his 20 year-old season. So far, every player who has received Exceptional Player status has made the jump right to the NHL (Tavares, Ekblad, McDavid), so it hasn't been an issue. Sean Day is the first Exceptional Player to not go first overall and go immediately to the NHL, so he could go to the AHL next season despite not turning 20 until 2018.
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I would also like to add that Tkachuk is a fairly unique kind of prospect. You don't want your skilled players playing on the 4th line. Can a prospect like Tkachuk get his ears wet and develop starting on the 4th line? I think so. I think that kind of game rather suits him. Not for an instant going to say that he is a 4th line player, or playing a 4th line caliber game, nor even that it is the best line for him to develop on. Just merely pointing out that he is a very gritty player, and unlike most prospects, I wouldn't suddenly think his development is being ruined if he spent time on the 4th line while he learns the NHL game a bit.
Gaudreau, Monahan and even Bennett - I would not want any of these on the 4th line. Tkachuk for a stretch on the 4th line? Would be fine - as long it is a stretch of games. His type of game gives a team more options that way, I think.
If you were to ask me which was better for development:
Commonly playing against older and better players, holding your own, and working on your deficiencies while being surrounded with the level you need to get to
or
Commonly playing against younger and worse players, dominating, and working on your deficiencies that aren't readily apparent in the league you're playing in...
I'm going to say you play with the best. I don't know any situation where competing against players below your level is beneficial for growth. If you can keep up with the best (Tkachuk can) then you learn against them. You'll always learn more and you'll always learn faster.
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What is he going to learn in Junior? Going to hammer in an extra year of learning Systems, Coverage and Playing styles that are irrelevant in the NHL?
The only valid reason that has been suggested for sending him down is to have him be "the guy" in London. Is being "the guy" really that valuable of experience considering he won't be counted on to be "the guy" in the NHL for 5 years? It's not like 25 year old Tkachuk will look back on to that one year he spent in junior 5-6 years ago and remember all the "leadership" skills he learned then. He'll learn how to be a leader in the NHL by growing in a league where he is surrounded by leaders.
Add the fact that playing in the NHL will be better for his development in pretty much every facet outside of leadership exposure and I think keeping him up is no brainer unless he really starts to struggle, which he hasn't yet.
What could he learn in junior? He could more finely hone his offensive skills and creativity as well as grow as a leader. A lot of talented players that are rushed into the NHL regress offensively because they are thrust into roles where they have to play simpler games. I simply don't see the benefit of having him play on a struggling Flames team where he's going to endure likely some press box time and reduced ice time. I'm not saying he's going to turn into Yakupov or anything but I simply don't see the benefit to the Flames to keep him past nine games unless you have no faith in the depth of your organization and maybe that's the case. I don't know. It just starting to feel like the Flames are turning into Oilers south plugging in these guys too early as there's nothing wrong with having them play another year of junior as look at the Jets with Scheifele and Ehlers. They were (and still are) a mediocre team like the Flames but they don't rush their guys and they look pretty good when they do get their chance.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 10-17-2016 at 12:58 PM.
A lot of great players struggle their draft+year in the juniors. It's not like he's guaranteed to dominate at unprecedented levels. Maybe if he broke OHL records last year I could see your point, but he could still improve upon his performance.
He led the OHL in playoff goal scoring with 20 goals, 20 assists for 40 points in 18 games. That's over 2 points per game in the playoffs when it matters most.
Those are the stats of someone who has dominated his level and needs to move on. How can he beat being the playoff goal scoring leader? There's nothing really left for him to accomplish at the junior level except maybe a World Junior Gold. He's won Gold at the U18s. He's won the OHL Championship while leading the playoffs in goals. He's won the Memorial Cup getting the GWG in the final.
He'd done everything there is to do in junior. He has NHL size and strength. It's not that he can't learn anything in junior, its that he'll learn and develop much faster in the best league in the world.
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What could he learn in junior? He could more finely hone his offensive skills and creativity as well as grow as a leader. A lot of talented players that are rushed into the NHL regress offensively because they are thrust into roles where they have to play simpler games. I simply don't see the benefit of having him play on a struggling Flames team where he's going to endure likely some press box time and reduced ice time. I'm not saying he's going to turn into Yakupov or anything but I simply don't see the benefit to the Flames to keep him past nine games unless you have no faith in the depth of your organization and maybe that's the case. I don't know. It just starting to feel like the Flames are turning into Oilers south plugging in these guys too early as there's nothing wrong with having them play another year of junior as look at the Jets with Scheifele and Ehlers.
Where is this coming from?
Of all of the players that deserve press box time so far this season, I'd say Tkachuk is probably one of the last forwards.
I sincerely doubt he sees any pressbox time if he at least maintains his current level of play.
What could he learn in junior? He could more finely hone his offensive skills and creativity as well as grow as a leader. A lot of talented players that are rushed into the NHL regress offensively because they are thrust into roles where they have to play simpler games. I simply don't see the benefit of having him play on a struggling Flames team where he's going to endure likely some press box time and reduced ice time. I'm not saying he's going to turn into Yakupov or anything but I simply don't see the benefit to the Flames to keep him past nine games unless you have no faith in the depth of your organization and maybe that's the case. I don't know. It just starting to feel like the Flames are turning into Oilers south plugging in these guys too early as there's nothing wrong with having them play another year of junior as look at the Jets with Scheifele and Ehlers. They were (and still are) a mediocre team like the Flames but they don't rush their guys and they look pretty good when they do get their chance.
Of all of the players that deserve press box time so far this season, I'd say Tkachuk is probably one of the last forwards.
I sincerely doubt he sees any pressbox time if he at least maintains his current level of play.
He's been fine so far but it's not uncommon for young players to perform their best in the first 1/4 of the season and it's probably not a stretch to say he would probably struggle at times during the season.
He's been fine so far but it's not uncommon for young players to perform their best in the first 1/4 of the season and it's probably not a stretch to say he would probably struggle at times during the season.
You know who else will struggle at times during the season? EVERYONE!
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So today I re-read a bit of the Tkachuk thread on HF. Had a few arguments on there with Canucks fans about whether they should be drafting Tkachuk or a dman. In homage to Gaskal I thought I'd do a bit of an
If he's available at 5, and the Canucks pass on him, it will be a huge mistake. This guy is pure offence. Starting to wonder if he's playing his way up to Edmonton?
As an added bonus, he drives the other team nuts!
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If the Canucks pass on this guy, I dono what to say really. This guy is a perfect playoff player in the future.
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At this point, I think he's BPA at 4.
I think he would be perfect in Edmonton on McDavid's wing.
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This has benning pick written all over him. Character guy. He's really a warrior. I want him on my side in the playoffs not Edmonton or calgary
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Yeah exactly. I'm glad you're picking 4 and we 5 because
A: It'll deny Calgary a top 5 talent in the draft, and they'll have to settle for a "3rd tier" guy. (When they would LOVE to have either of these guys)
B: You have to make the tough decision between Tkachuk and Dubois (considering you don't trade it).
Perfect.
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They are now in the position that we were in the Monahan draft. I really wanted one of Monahan or Lindholm but we ended up missing them by 1 and 2 picks respectively. That said they could still land a very good player at 6 but they are now picking after we get our turns at the trough.
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Yes, with Tkachuk and PLD's performances there is now a nice and clear top 5 in this draft. Very glad we are not at that 6 spot
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And what an annoying player he is to play against.
Assuming he is an Oiler or Canuck, the other 2 cities in Western Canada will absolutely detest him.
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Delusional. There is as good as a chance Jesse pulujurvi dropping to 5th then tkachuk dropping to 6
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If Dubois is gone, guaranteed the Canucks take Tkachuk (if the Nucks hold onto the pick).
It's BPA.
You could likely trade Tkachuk in 1-2 seasons for a pretty good d-man, or center.
You can trade assets later on if you feel you are strong at one position and weak at another.
The top 5 are decided.
I get why fans from teams drafting after 5 would like to come up with scenarios where Dubois or Tkachuk drop, but it's not happening.
They played well down the stretch, and likewise no one thought to be challenging them played so incredibly well that they leapfrogged them.
Is a trade a possibility?
Sure, I'd say that could be a possibility.
If Benning absolutely loves someone other than the top 5 guys (like Brown, or d-man) he could trade the pick for an additional nice asset.
I get the feeling Benning would consider that for Juolevi...but 'feelings' mean very little.
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That's very sweet of you to care so much about the Canucks future but we'll take Tkachuk if Dubois is not available. The Flames can have the more valuable center/dman that you speak of.
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We cant score goals, lets take a defenseman boys!
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Ofc it would be a mistake for the Canucks to pick Tkachuk "FLAMES draft watcher", yet you would obviously gladly take him at 6th. This is the Canucks highest pick since they picked the Sedins in 1999, and you think they should reach for a lesser good player with that pick just because that player "could" fulfill a positional need?
Your team hasn't drafted a defenceman in the 1st round since Erixon in 2009, and he didn't even end up signing with you guys. You had 3 1st round picks in 2013 and you still refused to pick a defenceman with any of those picks. I guess you don't have to draft your defencemen in the 1st round.
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Man, you are trying really hard at pushing your own theory
What's the point of it? Even us canucks fans all bite it, JB won't.
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I don't care if YOU don't think they are a tier above the rest, but they're clearly better than any of the options below them... That's your opinion that they aren't...
Again. Edmonton and Vancouver, as fellow western Canadian teams, are not going to hand Calgary a player like Tkachuk or Dubois, which would fit PERFECTLY on your team, unless Calgary MASSIVELY overpays. That would be stupid. Do you really think the Canucks or Edmonton would want to face a guy like Tkachuk for 15 years? Or Big bodied Dubois? Hell no. If Calgary wants to move up, they will have to try and move up into the top 3, because that's really your only chance. Benning may not be the smartest guy in the world, but he's not stupid enough to just hand Calgary exactly what they need...
PS you sound butt hurt you're picking behind us for a change.... Let me tell you this.. We need a higher pick MUCH more than you do, so simmer down.
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calgary fans want tkachuk so bad lmao AINT HAPPENIN BROSKIS.
u can have nylander and a bag of marshmellows
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I can't see a scenario where Dubois & Tkachuk are not selected in the 4-5 slots regardless of which teams possess those picks at draft day.
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whats funny it's like you have guys like him, and leafs93 trying to convince the world that Tkachuk is not the right pick for us, yet, Tkachuks it he right pick for Calgary. Probably doing it to troll the number 5 spot.
easy.
if Oilers Pick Tkachuk we take Dubois, if they take Dubois we take Tkachuk. easy.
now lets just talk about the player himself.
great player, we need someone like him to lead by example by hard work.
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you know who will work out well for Vancouver?
Austin Mathews.
but it's a pipe dream.
Just like Tkachuk or Dubois for the flames.
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What is he going to learn in Junior? Going to hammer in an extra year of learning Systems, Coverage and Playing styles that are irrelevant in the NHL?
The only valid reason that has been suggested for sending him down is to have him be "the guy" in London. Is being "the guy" really that valuable of experience considering he won't be counted on to be "the guy" in the NHL for 5 years? It's not like 25 year old Tkachuk will look back on to that one year he spent in junior 5-6 years ago and remember all the "leadership" skills he learned then. He'll learn how to be a leader in the NHL by growing in a league where he is surrounded by leaders.
Add the fact that playing in the NHL will be better for his development in pretty much every facet outside of leadership exposure and I think keeping him up is no brainer unless he really starts to struggle, which he hasn't yet.
I generally agree with this, but more to the bolded part it brings to mind the video that was produced by flames.tv which featured Tkachuk on draft day. In this video everyone can see that he is clearly a highly assertive, smart, confident kid who already exudes a tremendous amount of "leadership" and enormous respect among peers and also pro hockey personnel. I honestly think being "the guy" is extremely over-rated—especially so for this kid.
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Originally Posted by woob
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What could he learn in junior? He could more finely hone his offensive skills and creativity as well as grow as a leader. A lot of talented players that are rushed into the NHL regress offensively because they are thrust into roles where they have to play simpler games. I simply don't see the benefit of having him play on a struggling Flames team where he's going to endure likely some press box time and reduced ice time. I'm not saying he's going to turn into Yakupov or anything but I simply don't see the benefit to the Flames to keep him past nine games unless you have no faith in the depth of your organization and maybe that's the case. I don't know. It just starting to feel like the Flames are turning into Oilers south plugging in these guys too early as there's nothing wrong with having them play another year of junior as look at the Jets with Scheifele and Ehlers. They were (and still are) a mediocre team like the Flames but they don't rush their guys and they look pretty good when they do get their chance.
I am curious to know which players you think the Flames pressed too early into NHL action.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
