[News] Flames Management Want to Create a "Black & Blue" Team

[Red]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Useless stats like average player size and hits per game?

Objective, easily-understood team metrics?

Not when a 4 minute a game guy is compared to a 21 minute guy.

The Hawks have size and toughness that plays lots of minutes. Theses guys can take a beating for 20 + minutes and still produce.

[AcGold]

I'd love for the Flames to start taking about an RGI, just for the epic meltdown that would ensue.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Totally for it. While Hartley's system can be pretty entertaining at times, I find myself either super entertained or super frustrated. It's painful to watch when the team can't seem to enter the offensive zone, making bad stretch passes leading to multiple icing calls, and getting hemmed in the defensive zone shot blocking for an entire game.

I think with a bigger team with more truculence mixed in with the skilled players on this team, Hartley would've adjusted for that and it'll still be entertaining hockey. If you're dealt with players that are smaller than most of the NHL team, you have no choice but to not get your players getting run at every single game for 82-games a season. We all saw what happened in the first two games of the series against Anaheim, the Flames couldn't handle the size of the Ducks. Yet, nothing was done for a whole season including the off season to rectify that. In addition, you can't have your smaller skilled guys play a truculence game for more than half the season without getting them injured. Mid-sized guys like Bouma, Hathaway, Ferland, and even Gio often never completes a full 82-game season playing full truculence. I think Hartley is trying to protect the players from injury by adapting and playing a smarter game.

[Ashasx]

Duncan Keith: 16 hits
Hjalmarsson: 32 hits

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

Who on the Flames D can intimidate like Keith, Seabrook or Hjalmarsson?

Uh, what? Kulak, Brodie, and Wotherspoon can indimidate like Duncan Keith, and Niklas Hjalmarsson. Those two intimidate no one with physicality or size. They are just really good hockey players.

...and Seabrook might throw the occasional big hit but he is far, far from an intimidator. No more than Giordano or Engelland "intimidate" anyone.

[bubbsy]

"We want to be a black and blue team," Burke added. "A top six, bottom six type (of) team that likes it rough. A puck possession team. So plenty of skill in the top six. We think we have that core group here."

Are teams really built like this now though?

Eastern Conf semi final teams
Caps:
ovechkin - backstrom - oshie
johansson - kuznetsov - williams
chimera - richards - burakovsky

Pens:
sheary - crosby - hornqvist
kunitz - malkin - sundqvist
hagelin - bonino - kessel

Tampa
palat - johnson - kecherov
killorn - fillpula - drouin/stamkos
paquette - boyle - callahan

Isles
quine - tavares - okposo
kulemin - nielson - bernier
prince - nelson - bailey

Western Conf semi final teams:
Stars
benn - seguin/eakin - sharp
janmark - spezza - nichuskin
roussel - faksa - hemsky

blues
schwartz - lehtera - tarasenko
steen - stasnty - brouwer
fabbri - berglund - backes

sharks
hertl - thornton - pavelski
donskoi - couture - ward
nieto - marleau - karlsson

preds
jarnrok - johansen - neal
forsberg - ribeiro - smith
wilson - fisher - arvidsson

(Source: http://www2.dailyfaceoff.com/teams/lines)

i don't think the norm is a top6/bottom6 anymore. there's 3 scoring lines now, arguably a first line, and then a 2a/2b set up. the fourth line is made up of the traditional "grinders" (what used to be the prototypical 3rd line back in the day).

here's a rough look at the flames top 9 this year
gaudreau - monahan - hudler/shinkaruk/....
colborne - backlund - frolik
ferland - bennet - jooris/bouma

there is a top line there for sure, but then lines 2a really only started scoring at the end of the year, and line 2b was not scoring consistently at any point of the year.

line 2a/2b had size and weren't soft in my opinion, in fact, i wonder if they lacked the skill to match other teams scoring depth.

now, that's the regular season story. when it comes to the playoffs, can the flames compete against the bigger, heavy hitting teams like the kings, ducks, sharks, blues? absolutely not, we saw that last year vs the ducks.

my conclusion is that the flames to be a winning hockey team that makes the playoffs needs more skill in their 2nd/3rd lines (naturally strong 200ft/2-way play is needed throughout).

however, if the aspirations are to be a team that can have success once they make the playoffs, than their has to be an element of size and physicality on each line to be able to battle thru when the games get tighter checking and played along the boards/outside.

Going out and getting bollig, engelland to be bottom line/pairing guys is not the way to solve the size issues on the roster. at least not in today's nhl. This element has to be sprinkled throughout each line/pairing...

[Red]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Duncan Keith: 16 hits
Hjalmarsson: 32 hits

Johnny had 26 recorded hits. According to your stats and logic he is more physical than the two above or close.

/conversation

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

Johnny had 26 recorded hits. According to your stats and logic he is more physical than the two above or close.

/conversation

That's actually an accurate assessment if you've ever watched a Chicago Blackhawks and Calgary Flames game in your life without letting your imagination run wild about how good teams are the Anti-Flames.

/conversation

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Uh, what? Kulak, Brodie, and Wotherspoon can indimidate like Duncan Keith, and Niklas Hjalmarsson. Those two intimidate no one with physicality or size. They are just really good hockey players.

...and Seabrook might throw the occasional big hit but he is far, far from an intimidator. No more than Giordano or Engelland "intimidate" anyone.

Are you really throwing out names like Kulak and Wotherspoon?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Are you really throwing out names like Kulak and Wotherspoon?

I'm really throwing out names like Kulak and Wotherspooon because that's how non-physical the Chicago Blackhawks are.

[Enoch Root]

Hits are a terrible stat for determining how gritty a team is.

The Hawks can be pretty dirty as a team overall. More importantly though, they stand up for each other, they battle hard, they are hard to play against, and they can be punishing at times.

They play a fast, possession game, but they back it up.

I couldn't care less what the stats say with respect to size or hits.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Hits are a terrible stat for determining how gritty a team is.

The Hawks can be pretty dirty as a team overall. More importantly though, they stand up for each other, they battle hard, they are hard to play against, and they can be punishing at times.

They play a fast, possession game, but they back it up.

I couldn't care less what the stats say with respect to size or hits.

Can we agree that as a team, they're not physically big compared to other teams?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Duncan Keith: 16 hits
Hjalmarsson: 32 hits

I don't think smashing your stick across a guy's face or ankles counts as a hit though

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Hits are a terrible stat for determining how gritty a team is.

The Hawks can be pretty dirty as a team overall. More importantly though, they stand up for each other, they battle hard, they are hard to play against, and they can be punishing at times.

They play a fast, possession game, but they back it up.

I couldn't care less what the stats say with respect to size or hits.

That's really the point I'm trying to make.

The Flames don't need to go out of their way to sign guys like Lucic to be gritty. Wasting draft picks on refrigerators and hoping they turn into physical monsters probably isn't the best way to build a team.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Hawks can be pretty dirty as a team overall. More importantly though, they stand up for each other, they battle hard, they are hard to play against, and they can be punishing at times.

The Flames stand up for each other, except you watch all 82 games and every small instance where they don't is forefront in your opinion.

The Flames battle hard, except you watch all 82 games and every small instance where they don't is forefront in your opinion

The Flames when they have the puck are hard to play against, but they rarely have the puck for a plethora of reasons.

The Flames can be punishing at times, except you watch all 82 games and every small instance where they don't is forefront in your opinion.

If stats like size and hits are useless then generic anecdotes are way, WAY more useless because they are seeped in expectation bias.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by heep223

Can we agree that as a team, they're not physically big compared to other teams?

I think you are over-emphasizing 'big'. Size alone isn't the issue. It's how the team plays.

The Hawks are as tough to play against as pretty much any team.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't think smashing your stick across a guy's face or ankles counts as a hit though

Crosschecking a ref doesn't, either. #Wideman

[Red]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Are you really throwing out names like Kulak and Wotherspoon?

And Brodie

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

And Brodie

I'm really throwing out names like Kulak and Wotherspooon AND BRODIE because that's how non-physical the Chicago Blackhawks are.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

That's really the point I'm trying to make.

The Flames don't need to go out of their way to sign guys like Lucic to be gritty. Wasting draft picks on refrigerators and hoping they turn into physical monsters probably isn't the best way to build a team.

How are you proposing they get tougher?

No one - literally no one - is arguing that they need to draft a whole bunch of 6'6" tough guys.

The idea is to be tougher to play against as a team. That includes a lot of things: some grittier players, some stronger players, some tougher players.

It DOES NOT mean less talented players.