Here they come after our money

[MarchHare]

Here's a few questions... did any other province cut their programs like Alberta had to in order to make ends meet?

I can't think of a single province that hasn't made huge cut-backs to spending over the last 10-15 years.

Did any other province have no control over its resources until it was a province for 25 years (aside from Sask)?

Some provinces don't even have control over their resources now: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/fishing/cod.html

Do any other provinces have as many average hours per week of work?

Are you suggesting other provinces aren't as well-off as Alberta because their citiznes are lazy and don't as hard? Just so we're clear...

Or even better... do any other provinces have legitimate pro-business governments (aside from BC?)

I'm not sure about other provinces, but New Brunswick -- at least while they were governed by Frank McKenna's Liberals -- was very pro-business.

BC and Saskatchewan also have substantial oil and gas... why aren't they booming like Alberta??

As I mentioned above, Saskatchewan was a "have" province in 2004-2005, thanks largely to the surge in oil prices.

present (Sask) inept governments are making that difficult.

I'll be the very first to accuse past NDP governments in BC and Ontario of being inept, but the Saskatchewan NDP certainly isn't. They run a balanced budget and Saskatchewan has been an economic success lately.

I should add, I'm not opposed to the Western Energy Accord idea. Share it with the West, help all those provinces thrive... perhaps a preamble to a Republic of Western Canada?

Why are you willing to share Alberta's wealth with the West but not other provinces? What have Atlantic Canadians done to deserve your scorn?

Personally, I think money earned by the Alberta provincial government is rightfully their's...no other province has a claim to that money. I don't have a problem with federal taxes collected from Albertans being sent to other provinces, though. I'm a Canadian first and foremost, and an Albertan second. You won't hear me complaining about the federal government using our money to assist other provinces that didn't win the lottery by having some arbitrary lines drawn on a map contain massive amounts of oil.

By the way, has anyone in the federal government actually proposed taking part of the surplus of the Alberta provincial government? I know Paul Martin has denied that Ottawa is planning any such cash-grab. How would they even go about doing such a thing anyway? I can't imagine there's any law on the books that allows one level of government to take money from another like that.

[Thunderball]

Here's a few questions... did any other province cut their programs like Alberta had to in order to make ends meet?

I can't think of a single province that hasn't made huge cut-backs to spending over the last 10-15 years.

Not like Alberta did the mid 90s... without electing a government that swiftly returned it to status quo at the expense of what the cuts were supposed to accomplish... fiscal responsibility, debt loss, etc.

Did any other province have no control over its resources until it was a province for 25 years (aside from Sask)?

Some provinces don't even have control over their resources now: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/fishing/cod.html

Thats because of two things... oceans aren't provincial jurisdictions. however, territory is. Yet, Alberta and Saskatchewan weren't even allowed to run their own lands until the 30s. Secondly, I do believe aside from Federal ownership of the ocean areas, they also sponsor the industry. Something the Oilpatch definitely doesn't get.

Do any other provinces have as many average hours per week of work?

Are you suggesting other provinces aren't as well-off as Alberta because their citiznes are lazy and don't as hard? Just so we're clear...

I'm saying Albertans make more money cause they have more access to good jobs and the atmosphere is incredibly pro business, compared to the ROC. Some who choose to live on welfare cheques rather than move to Ontario or the West where jobs are may be lazy, yes. My family had to leave cities to find work twice. Its something that has to be done sometimes.

Or even better... do any other provinces have legitimate pro-business governments (aside from BC?)

I'm not sure about other provinces, but New Brunswick -- at least while they were governed by Frank McKenna's Liberals -- was very pro-business.

Had... not have. You'll notice that, well, every province but Alberta swaps out their fiscally responsible government for the easy way out, more social spending, no cuts, rely on transfers to make ends meet. Yes, Mckenna's liberals weren't bad. Were they like Campbell Liberals, Klein Tories or Harris Tories? Nope.

BC and Saskatchewan also have substantial oil and gas... why aren't they booming like Alberta??

As I mentioned above, Saskatchewan was a "have" province in 2004-2005, thanks largely to the surge in oil prices.

Well, you can thank the pressure from the Sask party to match taxation and royalties in the oilpatch to that of Alberta's for that. Even so, its a beginning, not a boom like here. Same with BC, why no boom? why just a sputter? Answer... ol' Swervin' Gordon Campbell has a lot of NDP mess to clean up. He might not even get a chance to see it through... I hope he does for BC's sake.

present (Sask) inept governments are making that difficult.

I'll be the very first to accuse past NDP governments in BC and Ontario of being inept, but the Saskatchewan NDP certainly isn't. They run a balanced budget and Saskatchewan has been an economic success lately.

Well, Lorne Calvert is starting to get it. Yet, half the Oilsands are in Saskatchewan, and why aren't they being exploited? Its still cost prohibitive due to provincial taxation and royalties on oilsands. Is he inept? borderline, I guess, cause he's starting to get it. The Sask party almost winning helped that too.

I should add, I'm not opposed to the Western Energy Accord idea. Share it with the West, help all those provinces thrive... perhaps a preamble to a Republic of Western Canada?

Why are you willing to share Alberta's wealth with the West but not other provinces? What have Atlantic Canadians done to deserve your scorn?

Why? Cause its not giving money away to people who refuse to change. This is money given to advance all provinces at the same time. Its good for Alberta to have prosperous neighbors and their governments to act accordingly. Its also important to have the say on where things go, to whom, and why. Its power over our money. This also works the other way, the second Alberta stumbles, the other two or three are there to immediately to support us. We've seen twice since 1961 that Alberta is ignored from equalization despite recessions.

Has anyone said anything?? not exactly. Ontario has been chirping off about wanting some more of the pie, Martin "guaranteeing supply for Canadians" today, as well as our old buddy Lalonde (of the Lalonde National Energy Policy fame) reappearing doesn't speak well for fair play. Plus, March, you're a smart guy, if you're gonna do something a lot of people are gonna hate, do you proudly announce it before you are ready, or quickly slam it down their throats and hope they don't gag too loudly before they supposedly swallow it. The Liberals know that if they don't scheme it right, Alberta will have a referendum on separation over it... where that goes is anyone's guess. They also know if they don't create an aura that they'll interfere, other provinces will lose faith in confederation and hold their own referendums, rightly or wrongly.

Confederation is sick right now, and frankly, its been terminal since 1867. They slammed two countries together, added some maritime provinces who are arguably different, and now another Anglo/American nation may be emerging in Western Canada.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 3 2005, 11:44 AM
That's sweet.

Someone says "I conserve electricity" and they're call hypocrites if they use a lightbulb.
Someone says "I use less gasoline" by biking to work in the summer" and they're called hypocrites because they don't do so in the winter.
Someone says "I recycle cans, plastics and newspaper" and they're called hypocrites because they don't recycle cardboard.
Someone says "I volunteer on Monday's, Wednesday's and Friday's at the Children's hospital" and they're called hypocrites because they don't go on Tuesday and Thursday.

Which I suppose could be valid criticisms. If the person doing the criticizing didn't use lightbulbs, biked to work in the winter, recycled everything, and volunteered at the Children's hospital every day of the week.

If you would like to compare tax receipts for charitable donations I'm game.

Well, you didnt answer exactly as I had hoped, but you did make my point for me as I expected.

I like your analogies. You are good at them.

The problem I have with your argument is that it is Alberta that is "recycling cans, plastics and newspaper", and it is you that is calling Alberta hypocrites because it "doesnt recycle cardboard."

Alberta contributes a great deal to this nation already. Yet here you are criticizing the province because it isnt contributing more.

I asked you the question I did because we both know that you cant possibly give everything you earn past what you need to others. You have to think of yourself at some point, and you especially have to think of your future.

I have no doubt that you give a lot to charity, but the fact is, you give only what you feel you can. A poor person on the street might disagree with you. Does that make you wrong? Alberta gives a lot to the charity case that is Canada, yet poorer provinces are looking at us and disagreeing. Does that make us wrong?

[Resolute 14]

61% of the rest of Canada wants us to share our budget surplus. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

Maybe these leetches should be attacking the Federal Liberals for not sharing their surplusses?

Or, how about attacking their own provincial governments for not budgeting within their means?

Of course, it is only our surplus that is questioned.

[duncan]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Sep 16 2005, 11:53 PM
61% of the rest of Canada wants us to share our budget surplus. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

Maybe these leetches should be attacking the Federal Liberals for not sharing their surplusses?

Or, how about attacking their own provincial governments for not budgeting within their means?

Of course, it is only our surplus that is questioned.

We already did address the waste at the Provincial Level, we voted the Provincial Conservatives out of office. No more funded private golf courses, no more private jails that cost more money, no more tax breaks for Pro sports teams..........

We don't want your damn surplus, we want to reduce what we pay to them, or get a bigger cut of the return. We are another of the 'have' provinces, that pays alot for alot less.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Sep 3 2005, 09:45 PM
Well, you didnt answer exactly as I had hoped, but you did make my point for me as I expected.

I like your analogies. You are good at them.

The problem I have with your argument is that it is Alberta that is "recycling cans, plastics and newspaper", and it is you that is calling Alberta hypocrites because it "doesnt recycle cardboard."

Alberta contributes a great deal to this nation already. Yet here you are criticizing the province because it isnt contributing more.

I asked you the question I did because we both know that you cant possibly give everything you earn past what you need to others. You have to think of yourself at some point, and you especially have to think of your future.

I have no doubt that you give a lot to charity, but the fact is, you give only what you feel you can. A poor person on the street might disagree with you. Does that make you wrong? Alberta gives a lot to the charity case that is Canada, yet poorer provinces are looking at us and disagreeing. Does that make us wrong?

Woah. Very different points of reference there.

I am not Ontario. It's not a province of one person. There is a complete logical falicy there.

I, as someone that gives a lot to charitable organizations cannot understand why others making as much as I do, do not want to give more to those that need it. I am not a province. *I* as an individual do not understand why other individuals would not want to give more. Other than cold, hard, selfish greed. "I want my MTV".

Let me tell you why this is an important issue for me. I'm from Nova Scotia. I have a LOT of family there. And I hear about the crowded classrooms. I hear about the school closures. The elementry school that I went to has had its student population triple, so it looks like a trailer park of portables. The province cannot afford a new school. The province is so far in debt, it can't afford simple things like schools. However, you presume that the other provinces are just budgeting poorly. If they had a smart government like Alberta's there would be lots and lots of money for schools. Typical Albertan thinking. I've seen nursing cut to the bone. The Conservatives have been in power there for years... and they tried their mantra of lowering taxes to help the economy, but when tax revenues dropped, all hell broke loose and they had to jack them back up again. My mother was let go from her company two years before qualifying for a retirement pension. She sent out hundreds of resumes, went to dozens of interviews, and each time she was told that she was "over-exprienced". In other words, they were looking for someone younger. There just were no jobs to be had there. Of course, the Albertan response would be "Well, she should have gotten a job.". I myself, had to leave my whole family, all my friends behind and go to Ontario to find work. THERE IS NO MONEY TO BE HAD. THERE IS LITTLE MEANS TO BUDGET WITHIN.

I suppose, we could just shoot them all. Solve that problem, eh?

[HOZ]

Well you little story there sounded like Alberta 15 years ago. People out of work and unable to find new work in their field. A province so indebted that it had no money for schools, hospitals, etc....

Alberta made the tough decision to cut wages, cut services, massive layoffs, and wage rollbacks. It sucked but it had to be done.

I guess Nova Scotia has some tough choices to make. I don't see how syphoning off billions from a successful economy to prop up a very inefficient economy will help. It's punishing efficiency and rewarding inefficiency. Giving NS billions more will not make that situation better.

Yes it would inject money into the province but it is a temporary solution and does nothing to fix the problem. As a matter of fact it makes the problem worse as it covers for bad government.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 17 2005, 11:43 AM
Woah. Very different points of reference there.

I am not Ontario. It's not a province of one person. There is a complete logical falicy there.

I, as someone that gives a lot to charitable organizations cannot understand why others making as much as I do, do not want to give more to those that need it. I am not a province. *I* as an individual do not understand why other individuals would not want to give more. Other than cold, hard, selfish greed. "I want my MTV".

Let me tell you why this is an important issue for me. I'm from Nova Scotia. I have a LOT of family there. And I hear about the crowded classrooms. I hear about the school closures. The elementry school that I went to has had its student population triple, so it looks like a trailer park of portables. The province cannot afford a new school. The province is so far in debt, it can't afford simple things like schools. However, you presume that the other provinces are just budgeting poorly. If they had a smart government like Alberta's there would be lots and lots of money for schools. Typical Albertan thinking. I've seen nursing cut to the bone. The Conservatives have been in power there for years... and they tried their mantra of lowering taxes to help the economy, but when tax revenues dropped, all hell broke loose and they had to jack them back up again. My mother was let go from her company two years before qualifying for a retirement pension. She sent out hundreds of resumes, went to dozens of interviews, and each time she was told that she was "over-exprienced". In other words, they were looking for someone younger. There just were no jobs to be had there. Of course, the Albertan response would be "Well, she should have gotten a job.". I myself, had to leave my whole family, all my friends behind and go to Ontario to find work. THERE IS NO MONEY TO BE HAD. THERE IS LITTLE MEANS TO BUDGET WITHIN.

I suppose, we could just shoot them all. Solve that problem, eh?

Mercy me. Crowded classrooms? Nursing cut to the bone?

I can hardly imagine.

If we don't want to pay more than everyone else into the pot, or if we want to enjoy what we have sacrificed for in the past it's "typical Albertan thinking"?

Here's some more typical Albertan thinking...

If they found a diamond as big as the Ritz Hotel under Halifax, Albertans wouldn't start whining about the price of engagement rings and demanding Nova Scotia pay far more than any other province because they had a few extra bucks lying around.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally posted by HOZ@Sep 17 2005, 03:06 PM
Yes it would inject money into the province but it is a temporary solution and does nothing to fix the problem. As a matter of fact it makes the problem worse as it covers for bad government.

Have you read this thread at all?!?!!? THE TRANSFERS ARE *NOT* ABOUT FIXING THE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS. They are about ensuring that each and every Canada gets about the same level of education.

And as I said, it's not bad government that is the problem there. Well, I disagree with the Conservative government on most everything, but they are not the KEY problem. As mentioned earlier in this thread, they are doing things to try to jumpstart the economy - everything from tech workers to movie industry. Problem: It's just not oil. If the offshore starts bringing in something, it may turn the situation around. There just isn't much industry there. Micheline pulled out. It makes sense to make cars closer to where you sell them. The government isn't the problem there.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Sep 17 2005, 03:41 PM
If they found a diamond as big as the Ritz Hotel under Halifax, Albertans wouldn't start whining about the price of engagement rings and demanding Nova Scotia pay far more than any other province because they had a few extra bucks lying around.

That's what the rich always say. Half of these threads are complaining that Canada didn't help out when Alberta was hurting.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 17 2005, 11:43 AM

I suppose, we could just shoot them all. Solve that problem, eh?

Why would we want to shoot them all when there's a MASSIVE skilled/unskilled abour shortage out here in Alberta? We can use the people we can get....

Seriously, if the conditions are that bad out East, why don't people move out here? Hell, half the companies here would pay for their relocation. Obviously it's not that easy (or maybe it is) but I've always wondered why people compalin about needing money/living conditions/schooling/hospitals in their province, and wanting more from the "have" people as if there is some magical barrier keeping them from coming to Alberta or Ontario.

Come on out, have a look around. Stay a while, we don't all drive pick ups with gun racks in the back window. It's not THAT bad here.

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 17 2005, 10:52 PM
Have you read this thread at all?!?!!? THE TRANSFERS ARE *NOT* ABOUT FIXING THE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS. They are about ensuring that each and every Canada gets about the same level of education.

Umm yes it is for economic reasons. It is a susbsidy for have-not provinces. Every dollar that is dumped onto have-not province is one dollar they do not need to use of their own. I am surprised that you cannot understand this simple economic premiss.

The fact that equalization payments are based on a national mythical / socialist(ie the lack of understanding of reality) ideal doesn't help either.

[tripin_billie]

Originally posted by Hakan@Sep 2 2005, 02:30 PM
Our wealth? C'mon Jiri, we were lucky and hit the jackpot in the natural resources department. We were also equally lucky when the privy council consistently ruled against the Federal Government on constitutional matters pertaining to the ownership of natural resources.

Do Albertans not understand that we are all part of a bigger political unit? And that bigger political unit gave more than its share to Alberta when it was a backwoods poverty stricken have not province? Jesus, the greed and shallow self interest of most Albertans sickens me.

are you fataing joking me? the federal government allowed Alberta to default on its loans in the '30s. They didn't help, they never help. Ontario fought the war for ownership of resources, so now they can just deal with other provinces enjoying the benefits that they seem to want to keep to themselves now.

the feds can fata off.

[ricosuave]

Originally posted by duncan@Sep 3 2005, 05:42 AM
I have been a Correctional Officer for 13 years, a proud Public Servant. I welcome you to step in and give it a try, to see if I am over-paid or not. Spend a few days in the pit of society, with violent offenders, after having protective equipment removed from your arsenal. Live with someone throwing bodily fluids at you, biting you, attempting to stab you....... But keep a profesional attitude, and a smile on your face.

hey, thats great, and im sure you do a fine job - but if it is so bad, why do you do it? why do you stay? because you are 13 years in? nothing in life is certain. nothing.

rico

[duncan]

Originally posted by ricosuave@Sep 18 2005, 03:56 AM
hey, thats great, and im sure you do a fine job - but if it is so bad, why do you do it? why do you stay? because you are 13 years in? nothing in life is certain. nothing.

rico

because my bailing on the job, isn't going to make it better. Staying and attempting to fix the problem is a hell of alot better than putting the tail between my legs and running like a chicken sh**.

The point of the matter, is that someone decided to voice their opinion on Public Servants, their worth, and the 'fact' they are to blame for the problem. No answer to that though.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 17 2005, 10:43 AM
Woah. Very different points of reference there.

I am not Ontario. It's not a province of one person. There is a complete logical falicy there.

I, as someone that gives a lot to charitable organizations cannot understand why others making as much as I do, do not want to give more to those that need it. I am not a province. *I* as an individual do not understand why other individuals would not want to give more. Other than cold, hard, selfish greed. "I want my MTV".

Let me tell you why this is an important issue for me. I'm from Nova Scotia. I have a LOT of family there. And I hear about the crowded classrooms. I hear about the school closures. The elementry school that I went to has had its student population triple, so it looks like a trailer park of portables. The province cannot afford a new school. The province is so far in debt, it can't afford simple things like schools. However, you presume that the other provinces are just budgeting poorly. If they had a smart government like Alberta's there would be lots and lots of money for schools. Typical Albertan thinking. I've seen nursing cut to the bone. The Conservatives have been in power there for years... and they tried their mantra of lowering taxes to help the economy, but when tax revenues dropped, all hell broke loose and they had to jack them back up again. My mother was let go from her company two years before qualifying for a retirement pension. She sent out hundreds of resumes, went to dozens of interviews, and each time she was told that she was "over-exprienced". In other words, they were looking for someone younger. There just were no jobs to be had there. Of course, the Albertan response would be "Well, she should have gotten a job.". I myself, had to leave my whole family, all my friends behind and go to Ontario to find work. THERE IS NO MONEY TO BE HAD. THERE IS LITTLE MEANS TO BUDGET WITHIN.

I suppose, we could just shoot them all. Solve that problem, eh?

There appears to be a logical falicy here, and it is yours. I never stated or implied that you were the entire province of Ontario. Hell, I never even mentioned Ontario once in that post. I have no idea what you are trying to argue when you are trying to argue comments that were never made.

My argument was that you give to charity what you feel is fair, and keep the rest for yourself. Alberta does the same. If Alberta can be crticized for that, so can you.

As far as your "why this is important to me" bit: blah, blah blah. As rouge mentioned, Alberta has seen every single one of those problems in the recent past as well. Except that rather than spending our money on building new schools and hospitals for ourselves, you want us to build them for your family. You want my hard work to benefit you and yours rather than me and mine.

I dont have a whole lot of sympathy for your mother's situation either. You yourself said you had to move to find a good job. So too can she. She chooses not to go where the jobs are, she chooses to accept her situation.

You may not like that attitude, but there most definitely is a need for personal responsibility. You want to be babysat by the government. You want all of your problems solved by someone else. And you are sitting here whining because we are telling you that we wont solve them for you.

Besides, what exactly do you think throwing more money at that black hole is going to solve? So Alberta sends $500 million to Nova Scotia to build a few more schools. What changes? There are still no jobs. There are still no opportunities. There is still "LITTLE MEANS TO BUDGET WITHIN."

What exactly does that act of charity do to make things better for your family?

[peter12]

Besides, what exactly do you think throwing more money at that black hole is going to solve? So Alberta sends $500 million to Nova Scotia to build a few more schools. What changes? There are still no jobs. There are still no opportunities. There is still "LITTLE MEANS TO BUDGET WITHIN."

What exactly does that act of charity do to make things better for your family?

As heartless as that sounds it is bang on...So Alberta sends $500 million, Little Suzie and Johnny get a school renovation and new text books for the year, that is great... it really is.

So what about the school in the next neighbourhood or the same school in 10 years? This one time cash injection won't solve any problem except for the Liberal's "How can we buy more Maritimer votes?" problem.

[MarchHare]

Alberta doesn't "send" any money at all, though.

I think there's a great misunderstanding about equalization and transfer payments that is prevalent on these boards and elsewhere. Equalization is when the federal (not provincial) government sends money to the eight have-not provinces. This money comes from federal coffers...Ottawa doesn't take money away from the provincial governments of Ontario and Alberta and then redistribute it. I think many people seem to have that misconception.

When people claim that the citizens Ontario and Alberta are paying for equalization, what they really mean is that the citizens of those provinces pay federal taxes that are then transferred to the provincial governments of other provinces. Taxpayers in the eight have-not provinces pay for equalization too, only that money is then returned (plus more) to their provincial government, whereas the citizens of Ontario and Alberta don't see any direct benefit from federal money that is spent on equalization. But it's not like Paul Martin is banging on Klein's door and demanding that the Alberta government send money to PEI. Revenues generated by the provincial governments of Alberta and Ontario are not taken away and sent to other provinces. If that were to ever change, I'd be right up there with the rest of you complaining about it. But as it stands now, as a Canadian citizen, it doesn't bother me that a portion of the taxes I pay to the federal government are spent on programs like equalization that I will personally not benefit from since it makes the country as a whole a better place to live.

[monkeyman]

There is no misunderstanding March... the argument is about Alberta distributing it's surplus to the rest of Canada not that we shouldn't pay taxes.
We, for the most part, are all aware that the equalization payments come from the federal government, taken from the taxes we all pay, and that is fair.

[monkeyman]

Originally posted by Devils'Advocate@Sep 17 2005, 03:52 PM
Have you read this thread at all?!?!!? THE TRANSFERS ARE *NOT* ABOUT FIXING THE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS. They are about ensuring that each and every Canada gets about the same level of education.

The equalization payments are already in place to ensure each Canadian get an equal level of health care and education. So how does Alberta sending more money solve anything other than unfairly taxing Alberta's citizens and risking it's own future? Alberta’s citizens have worked hard in the form of welfare, education and health care cuts.

If anything Alberta's surplus should be used to boost our own Alberta health care. We wait 3 or 4 hours waiting to see a doctor, or in the education system which is seeing bigger and bigger class sizes, or new schools because more and more kids are having to bus to and from schools, some as much as a 2 hours a day.

If you want to talk about closing schools, well my old elementary school here in Calgary just closed, not because it was in disarray, but because it was no longer viable to keep it open.

You've also mentioned that you don't understand why people who make as much money as you don't give as much as you do... you can't be that pompous can you? I'm sure there are people that make less than you that give more than you do, so don't give me your riotous bull shinguard.
It's always easy to spend someone else’s money.