[Rumour] Flames still trying to re-sign Russell

[Imported_Aussie]

The problem with signing Russell is the timing. It is the same offseason that has raises for Giordano (known), Gaudreau and Monahan (unknown) kicking in, not to mention whether Hudler is retained or another UFA is signed as a top 6 forward, and then there is also a lot of dead money on the defence in Smid, Engelland, Wideman. It is not so much of a problem when those contracts come off the books, but in committing money to Russell now, before moving out at least one of that trio of 5-7 D on big contracts, it could handcuff Treliving. If the Flames could even move one of those guys, the impact is lessened - e.g. take Smid's 3.5M, split that to around 900K on an ELC player and the rest goes towards Russell's raise. But then there needs to be money for the forwards - can the team justify 5 D making more than 4M?

If Treliving can wizard one/both of Monahan and Gaudreau onto Huberdeau style bridge contracts, that alleviates the short term pain, but then you end up going into RFA negotiations in 2 years with players in their prime, holding more bargaining chits

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

The NHL has a salary cap? Since when?!

You joke but when I see posts like yours I'm left to wonder if it's forgotten.

Originally Posted by Major Major

Sorry but are we presuming to know what the Russell's ask is? I agree with what you say, but it is possible to look at this situation with an open mind rather than having a fixed opinion based on imagined information.

There are three variables at play:
Flames position at trade deadline relative to the playoffs.
Russell's contract demands.
Trade value.

We know none of these things right now. I can tell you this though, there are viable scenarios where he is extended prior to trade deadline, traded at or before trade deadline, retained past deadline and lost as a UFA (the horror), and retained beyond deadline but re-signed at some point.

You're right we don't know what Russell's asking price is but I think we can assume it isn't cheap. If he hits the open market as a UFA, he's going to get paid. One has to imagine he hits 4.5/per easily and maybe more.

That doesn't really work in the Flames budget IMO, especially with contracts to Monahan and Gaudreau this summer and Bennett next.

A cap season means identifying your key players and jettisoning those who aren't when they become too expensive in their roles. You want young players to continue to move up through the system and fill those spots. It might not always work but that's a cap system for you. There will probably be holes in your team.

Not trading Russell and losing him as a UFA would not be good IMO. The price for a depth blueliner at the deadline is always a high price. The blow for not moving Camalleri was softened due to how abysmal the market was then. I also buy Burke's logic about not caving with minutes to go, but that's another discussion.

[Erick Estrada]

The bottom line is that Hartly better get used to icing younger players in his bottom pairings going forward as next season will be the last that guys like Wideman, Engelland and Smid will be options for him.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I am surprised that a team that is putting an emphasis on size wants to resign Russell.

His lack of size is a big issue in the defensive zone in the western conference, and he often gets pinned deep in his own zone on the cycle because of it.

He's probably great in the room, and blocks a lot of shots, but he isn't worth the $3million+ that he is going to want.

These are fair points, but you have to realize that the lack of size is also prominent among the forward ranks. Most times when he gets pinned it's because he's forwarded the puck to the forward along the boards, and they can't get the puck out, so it goes back down deep. He battles for the puck again, often wins, or blocks a shot resulting in a turnover, and then he pushes the puck up the boards again.

Whenever I see trends in the team getting pinned deep, it's usually because the same forwards are on the ice. The biggest culprits for failing to clear the zone are Raymond, Granlund, and Gaudreau, mostly because of their lack of size. Colborne is the rare big man who has trouble clearing the zone. Even Bollig isn't too terrible at it.

The problems of Russell aren't that he doesn't do his job, it's that he doesn't fit in well with a small forward group. It's rare that he's the main problem when it comes to being stuck in the defensive zone. He often gives his teammates opportunities to get out but they fail.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The bottom line is that Hartly better get used to icing younger players in his bottom pairings going forward as next season will be the last that guys like Wideman, Engelland and Smid will be options for him.

I think Smid surprisingly coming back, and not being able to move Wideman, really hurt the development of some players on the back end this year.

Wotherspoon and Nakladal both need some NHL time to take the next step and develop as players.

However the way the roster played out, and then the reluctance of Hartley to play his young d-men, has hurt their development IMO.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Russel is probably worth keeping at anything less than about $3m, and 4 years or less.

Anything above those numbers, and I'd be happy to see him make that money on another team.

But as many others have pointed out, Russel is not the problem with the Flames' defensive corps cap structure.

The Flames routinely dress a roster where the bottom defence pairing and the guy in the pressbox are making almost $12 million.

That is the problem.

[PeteMoss]

Flames need to get away from paying bottom line forwards and bottom pairing defenseman much in a salary cap world.

The Lance Bouma contract was the first mistake here, Russell would be the second.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Flames need to get away from paying bottom line forwards and bottom pairing defenseman much in a salary cap world.

The Lance Bouma contract was the first mistake here, Russell would be the second.

Bouma is an identity player. He sets the example for hard work, perseverance and self sacrifice. Paying him in no way hurts us going forward IMO.

Paying Russell too much on a defence thàt had a few big salaries is a totally different issue and would be a huge problem going forward if we don't dump some of the other vets making a lot.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think Smid surprisingly coming back, and not being able to move Wideman, really hurt the development of some players on the back end this year.

Wotherspoon and Nakladal both need some NHL time to take the next step and develop as players.

However the way the roster played out, and then the reluctance of Hartley to play his young d-men, has hurt their development IMO.

Having a lot of forwards on entry level contracts has afforded the Flames the opportunity to ice one of the more experienced blue lines in the league over the past few seasons but that's coming to an end. I agree it would have been nice to use this season to break in a young defender or two but those days are coming in the near future. After the deadline we could see some players called up if the team is out of the playoff running. A few years back after the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades that influx of AHL talent and enthusiasm to close the season was kind of a spring board for last season's success so I'm hoping to see something similar this season.

[Benched]

if the plan is Gio-Brodie, Russell-Hamilton, ***-*** young guys...then sure. But that means you suck it up next year until 3 big contracts come off the books. This works well if you think the young guys are 2 years out.

If they need room next year then Smid/Englland/Wideman must move.


If I'm being honest, I'd rather have Russell over Wideman. And with 'top 4' Dmen being paid, we just need to do ELCs or low paying Dmen for 5-7 so we have a more balanced cap structure.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

These are fair points, but you have to realize that the lack of size is also prominent among the forward ranks. Most times when he gets pinned it's because he's forwarded the puck to the forward along the boards, and they can't get the puck out, so it goes back down deep. He battles for the puck again, often wins, or blocks a shot resulting in a turnover, and then he pushes the puck up the boards again.

Whenever I see trends in the team getting pinned deep, it's usually because the same forwards are on the ice. The biggest culprits for failing to clear the zone are Raymond, Granlund, and Gaudreau, mostly because of their lack of size. Colborne is the rare big man who has trouble clearing the zone. Even Bollig isn't too terrible at it.

The problems of Russell aren't that he doesn't do his job, it's that he doesn't fit in well with a small forward group. It's rare that he's the main problem when it comes to being stuck in the defensive zone. He often gives his teammates opportunities to get out but they fail.

That would be the same for every d-man on this team then, since they are all chipping the puck to the same forwards, in the end Russell is the worst because he also struggles to win those battles.

I am not a huge advanced stats guy but one that I do like is the With or Without You metric.

Every single player on the Flames roster has a worse Corsi % when they are playing with Russell, vs. when they are playing without him.

That is no longer just a coincidence, he is a driver of poor play in our own zone.

Best example is Hamilton, in 358 minutes with Russell he has a 45.2% Corsi For, without Russell in 236 minutes he is a 52.5% Corsi for.

If you can pay him like a bottom pairing d-man then sure bring him back but he isn't going to be worth more then $3million.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/show...015-16&sit=f10

[Cali Panthers Fan]

^Well said. I have nothing to rebut with.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

These are fair points, but you have to realize that the lack of size is also prominent among the forward ranks. Most times when he gets pinned it's because he's forwarded the puck to the forward along the boards, and they can't get the puck out, so it goes back down deep. He battles for the puck again, often wins, or blocks a shot resulting in a turnover, and then he pushes the puck up the boards again.

Whenever I see trends in the team getting pinned deep, it's usually because the same forwards are on the ice. The biggest culprits for failing to clear the zone are Raymond, Granlund, and Gaudreau, mostly because of their lack of size. Colborne is the rare big man who has trouble clearing the zone. Even Bollig isn't too terrible at it.

The problems of Russell aren't that he doesn't do his job, it's that he doesn't fit in well with a small forward group. It's rare that he's the main problem when it comes to being stuck in the defensive zone. He often gives his teammates opportunities to get out but they fail.

Actually, I think the three smaller guys you mentioned are pretty decent at getting the puck out when they get the puck from a D man. Gaudreau almost always gets it out, Raymond has made some surprisingly good plays at the blue line and Granlund is solid as well. Bollig, on the other hand, is pretty terrible at getting the puck out.

But Engelland and Russell, IMO are really bad at putting the forwards in that position. They constantly just ring the puck and - surprise! a pinching D man or high winger has no problem in reading the pass and either intercepting or clogging it up into a scrum. Engelland is maybe more understandable - he lacks mobility, but you'd think Russell could take a few steps and make a smarter pass. But he doesn't and that's why he leads the league in blocked shots - the puck comes back at him time and time again.

[Monahan For Mayor]

http://public.tableau.com/shared/ZWQ...splay_count=no
Why you don't sign Russell.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But Engelland and Russell, IMO are really bad at putting the forwards in that position. They constantly just ring the puck and - surprise! a pinching D man or high winger has no problem in reading the pass and either intercepting or clogging it up into a scrum. Engelland is maybe more understandable - he lacks mobility, but you'd think Russell could take a few steps and make a smarter pass. But he doesn't and that's why he leads the league in blocked shots - the puck comes back at him time and time again.

I actually think as to your point above, re the opposing pinching d man or high winger pinching, is a coaching and systems issue. It's been one of the things IMO that other teams have been reading all year and Hartley has made very few adjustments.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by heep223

I actually think as to your point above, re the opposing pinching d man or high winger pinching, is a coaching and systems issue. It's been one of the things IMO that other teams have been reading all year and Hartley has made very few adjustments.

Maybe. Except Gio, Brodie and Hamilton don't do it, and I noticed Smid doesn't either. Even Wideman makes better zone exit passes than Russell. So does Hartley coach it to only two defencemen?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Maybe. Except Gio, Brodie and Hamilton don't do it, and I noticed Smid doesn't either. Even Wideman makes better zone exit passes than Russell. So does Hartley coach it to only two defencemen?

Gio definitely does it. Watch for it over the next few games. You're right Hamilton less so, and Brodie just skates it out.

I think that generally it's a system issue.

[868904]

Any one know what the deal is with buyouts? I remember ready earlier in the year Duhatschek was saying the Flames have been trying to trade Wideman since last year and if they can't, they will buy him out next year.

How does that work? Is there cap penalties?

[Locke]

Nobody? No one? Seriously?

Fine, I'll be 'that guy.'

Lets Ference this up. Sign and trade!

If there is a God he wont eventually wind up in Edmonton. Thats just cruel and unusual punishment. Granted the money is good and the work is easy.

And if there isnt a God...well...Edmonton is kinda proof.

[SuperMatt18]

I hope Edmonton gives him way too much money for way too much term.