Why Erik Karlsson should win the Hart

[Machiavelli]

Maybe the Norris again, but the Hart will go to Ovechkin or Kane.

[CASe333]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So winning has nothing to do with it?

Does Karlsson make the players around him better?

How much worse would Ottawa be without Karlsson? They have only 5 more wins than Edmonton.... 7 more than Toronto's worst in the league 20.

Ricardo look at the stats Street Pharmacist posted. Eric Karlsson is putting up better numbers then Ray Bourque on a worse team (by their metrics). Point being is he is playing at a great level and if he keeps this up my bet he ends up winning a cup or at worst ends up in the hof.

Definitely deserves any accolades at this point imho

[Flames Draft Watcher]

What about this stat, OTT has given up 186 goals against to lead the league. No way the best defenseman in the league plays on the worst defensive team in the league, especially when they have better goaltending than we do!

Karlsson is insane offensively. He's also not amazing defensively. To some of us that means he can never be one of the best defensemen in the league, cause he doesn't defend at a high level and the position is as much or moreso about preventing goals. He's not really a defenseman anyways, he's an offenseman

I'll take Doughty every day of the week over Karlsson if we're trying to actually win the Cup or the Gold Medal. If you wanna lose 6-5 then Karlsson is your man.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What about this stat, OTT has given up 186 goals against to lead the league. No way the best defenseman in the league plays on the worst defensive team in the league, especially when they have better goaltending than we do!

Karlsson is insane offensively. He's also not amazing defensively. To some of us that means he can never be one of the best defensemen in the league, cause he doesn't defend at a high level and the position is as much or moreso about preventing goals. He's not really a defenseman anyways, he's an offenseman

I'll take Doughty every day of the week over Karlsson if we're trying to actually win the Cup or the Gold Medal. If you wanna lose 6-5 then Karlsson is your man.

If Karlsson played for the Kings and Doughty played for the Senators, Karlsson would have two Cups in addition to his Norris Trophies. Doughty would have two Olympic gold medals.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If Karlsson played for the Kings and Doughty played for the Senators, Karlsson would have two Cups in addition to his Norris Trophies. Doughty would have two Olympic gold medals.

Uh,

First, there were a lot of elite forward pairs who would have a field day cycling Karlsson to death in the West. 2012 Sedin/Sedin, 2014 Thornton/Burns, 2014 Getzlaf/Perry. Doughty played like a man possessed on those cup runs. He was the single best player in the world for both.

Second Karlsson wouldn't activate offensively in the Kings system like he does in Ottawa, so he wouldn't have his Norris Trophies either.

You may choose to believe what Karlsson's doing right now is incredible. But that doesn't mean the "what if everything was different" scenario would be as incredible.

[Pointman]

If you compare defencemen to CEOs, it's like two different types of CEOs, one is an excellent all-around CEO, who can organize and lead a big company and another one sucks at running the company, but can produce insane sells and incoming cash-flow.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Uh,

First, there were a lot of elite forward pairs who would have a field day cycling Karlsson to death in the West. 2012 Sedin/Sedin, 2014 Thornton/Burns, 2014 Getzlaf/Perry. Doughty played like a man possessed on those cup runs. He was the single best player in the world for both.

Second Karlsson wouldn't activate offensively in the Kings system like he does in Ottawa, so he wouldn't have his Norris Trophies either.

You may choose to believe what Karlsson's doing right now is incredible. But that doesn't mean the "what if everything was different" scenario would be as incredible.

The highest paid forward on Erik Karlsson's team is Bobby Ryan, and the best forward on the team is Mark Stone. If Karlsson played on a better team, he wouldn't magically become a worse player. He's not a product of his environment. He's played for Craig Hartsburg, Cory Clouston, Paul MacLean and now Dave Cameron. Karlsson plays the game the way Karlsson plays the game. You don't try and change a player like that, you keep him pointed in the right direction.

Darryl Sutter is not a fool. You may choose to believe he wouldn't be able to coach the LA Kings to two Stanley Cups with Erik Karlsson instead of Drew Doughty, but I won't.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What about this stat, OTT has given up 186 goals against to lead the league. No way the best defenseman in the league plays on the worst defensive team in the league, especially when they have better goaltending than we do!

Karlsson is insane offensively. He's also not amazing defensively. To some of us that means he can never be one of the best defensemen in the league, cause he doesn't defend at a high level and the position is as much or moreso about preventing goals. He's not really a defenseman anyways, he's an offenseman

I'll take Doughty every day of the week over Karlsson if we're trying to actually win the Cup or the Gold Medal. If you wanna lose 6-5 then Karlsson is your man.

Hockey doesn't work like that.

[The Yen Man]

If the Kings offered me Doughty straight up for Karlsson, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Doughty's the type of defenseman you win championships with. Karlsson, you win fantasy hockey with.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

If the Kings offered me Doughty straight up for Karlsson, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Doughty's the type of defenseman you win championships with. Karlsson, you win fantasy hockey with.

You also won with Carter, Gaborik, Quick and many others Ottawa doesn't have.

I take Karlsson every time

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

If the Kings offered me Doughty straight up for Karlsson, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Doughty's the type of defenseman you win championships with. Karlsson, you win fantasy hockey with.

Nonsense. You win championships with both guys. But Erik Karlsson isn't the GM. It's not his fault the best centre on the team is Kyle Turris. Or that the highest paid defenseman on the team is Dion Phaneuf.

Ottawa is a team with a bunch of good players and one great one. And a bunch of coaches who are in over their heads.

The Kings have three surefire Hall of Famers in Doughty, Kopitar and Quick. Plus Jeff Carter and Mike Richards (especially the first time). They have a Hall of Fame coach.

Hockey is a team game. Sweden played for the gold medal in Sochi because Karlsson was the best player in the tournament. Don't act like he's Mike Green.

[kerriffic]

Just figured I'd throw these here, also holy crap I didn't realize Brodie was so high in ranking.





Courtesy of @classlicity

[GreenLantern2814]

Can you advanced stats guys please elaborate on these things? I have zero interest in figuring out what the Hell that graph is, but I'll gladly spend fifteen seconds reading your explanation.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by kerriffic

Just figured I'd throw these here, also holy crap I didn't realize Brodie was so high in ranking.





Courtesy of @classlicity

So the top left corner looks red. OK, maybe that means those defensemen are hot right now, amirite?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

The highest paid forward on Erik Karlsson's team is Bobby Ryan, and the best forward on the team is Mark Stone. If Karlsson played on a better team, he wouldn't magically become a worse player. He's not a product of his environment. He's played for Craig Hartsburg, Cory Clouston, Paul MacLean and now Dave Cameron. Karlsson plays the game the way Karlsson plays the game. You don't try and change a player like that, you keep him pointed in the right direction.

Drew Doughty was a 60 point Dman before Sutter as a 19-year old.
Yet Drew Doughty in his prime, under Sutter, is a 35-45 point Dman. If you don't see that systems affect play I don't know what to say.

Systems matter. The Kings system does zero favors to defensemen stats, it asks them to be strong in their zone, make short passes to move the puck, and to get pucks deep, especially when the game is tight. It's not a style suitable for Karlsson. He can adapt to that but he can kiss his stats goodbye.

Great players change their game to what makes the team successful, not what produces the best individual statistics. The Kings have a roster full of guys who should be putting up better stats - Quick (SV%), Kopitar (80+ points), Doughty (60+ points), Carter (40+ goals) but aren't because the way they play ensures the best results as a team - and that's why they're a championship contender.

So yeah, Karlsson would not have two Norris Trophies in the Kings system, the Kings system has already cost Drew Doughty about four Norris Trophies.

Darryl Sutter is not a fool. You may choose to believe he wouldn't be able to coach the LA Kings to two Stanley Cups with Erik Karlsson instead of Drew Doughty, but I won't.

And if you put Giroux on the Blackhawks instead of Toews they still win three titles.
And if you put Tavares on the Kings instead of Kopitar they still win in 2012 and 2014.
And if you put Lundqvist on the Bruins instead of Tim Thomas they still win in 2011.
And if you put Lidstrom on the Ducks instead of Pronger they still win in 2007.

It doesn't work like that. You can't just plop players in and assume that their contributions in every way get replaced. Those players' contributions were a huge part of why they won championships, and contirbutions in every little way.

Does Karlsson replace the 122 penalty kill minutes Doughty put in on his two cup runs? Karlsson has 109 penalty kill minutes in the last two whole regular seasons. We're not just talking about killing penalties against anybody here, we're talking about some of the biggest, best forwards in the world, Thornton, Sedin, Getzlaf. Guys you can't just throw a bunch of Smids out against.

Karlsson is a great offensive defenseman. But until he actually shows he can do what Doughty already did, does not mean he "would do" what Doughty did. Doughty is the perfect defenseman, he's got the skating, shot, and puck skills to lead the rush just like Karlsson does, but he also has strength, physicality, and awareness to shut down opponents, that Karlsson hasn't shown. This is like a less extreme version of Zdeno Chara being compared to Keith Yandle. They're not interchangeable because one guy might put up more points.

[kerriffic]

So basically the bottom graphic looks at the players relative to all defenceman with over 500 min of five vs five hockey..... Players to the right = good, and players to the left of the graph = not so good. The middle players are considered average in relation to the rest of the league. I mean right now doughty isn't even the best on his own team, he's very much average.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by kerriffic

So basically the bottom graphic looks at the players relative to all defenceman with over 500 min of five vs five hockey..... Players to the right = good, and players to the left of the graph = not so good. The middle players are considered average in relation to the rest of the league. I mean right now doughty isn't even the best on his own team, he's very much average.

No. Just more context, not really relating to who is better.

It's a comparison of who gets points while being on the ice with the what caliber of players in his team. Doughty is an amazing defenseman, but I think Karlsson is a one in a generation defenseman

[kerriffic]

Yeah that's a better explanation, I find it hard to describe sometimes without all the technical mumbo jumbo.

[troutman]

Watched PIT a few times this week, and Letang does everything for the Penguins.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/pl...t/avgTimeOnIce

[N-E-B]

If Karlsson is putting up points, that means the puck isn't in his end, which means he's doing his job. Just because Karlsson is putting up points does not mean he's horrible defensively. He's the best defenseman in the world if you ask me.