RIP You Love You Lose thread

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Thanks guys for the supporting data. Despite being taken off in a tangent by hare, nurses are still a very female dominated profession and are well paid. Gone are the days that female professionals get paid peanuts. Its good that we've dispelled that myth.

[pylon]

I would also like to add that engineers salaries are plummeting. Many major oil companies are bringing in foreign engineers for 50-60 cents on the dollar. It used to be after a client told me 'Engineer' I immediately put my finger on the 1 or 2 key to start typing in the 6 digits the bank needed. Now it is more 7's and 8's on 5 digit salaries.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

nm

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

would anyone consider that a sexist/racist policy?

Yes.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Thanks guys for the supporting data. Despite being taken off in a tangent by hare, nurses are still a very female dominated profession and are well paid. Gone are the days that female professionals get paid peanuts. Its good that we've dispelled that myth.

They might not get paid peanuts, but there is ample evidence of a wage disparity between men and women, just as there is ample evidence of wage and opportunity disparities between white people and minorities. You've managed to point out a grand total of one female-dominated profession that pays similar to some male-dominated professions. The caveat you've failed to mention is that nursing is not female-dominated because it fails to provide equal opportunities for men. It's female-dominated because men choose to continue to view it as a women's profession.

I really don't understand why we're comparing RNs to engineers anyways. Really, any profession whose salary structures are dictated by a CBA isn't really comparable to non-union professions because the CBA's mandate that you can't pay someone differently based on gender and usually include clauses for promotions and mobility which focus heavily on seniority.

The comparison should be female engineers to male engineers or female CEOs to male CEOs. Hell, if I wanted to be a dick about it we could compare female athletes to male athletes.

Someone mentioned more women in med school and law school lately, but again that's only half the story. What we need to know if we're going to make a comparison of that nature is what percentage of female graduates find employment after law school, and what their average starting salaries are vs. their male counterparts.

Originally Posted by pylon

I would also like to add that engineers salaries are plummeting. Many major oil companies are bringing in foreign engineers for 50-60 cents on the dollar. It used to be after a client told me 'Engineer' I immediately put my finger on the 1 or 2 key to start typing in the 6 digits the bank needed. Now it is more 7's and 8's on 5 digit salaries.

I actually wanted to comment on this because I think you're probably in a unique position to spot income disparity between men and women. I wonder if you looked back at say the last three-months of approved financing agreements and looked to see which gender had higher annual incomes and just how big of a gap there were in the number of clients from each gender. Obviously this isn't scientific because I doubt your application forms ask applicants to identify their gender, so you'd be largely doing this based on names alone, but it would be interesting (for me anyways) nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Basically it was affirmative action, Canada style IMO. It was hilarious to see one 19 year old cashier get promoted over men with 20 years in the company. Well not hilarious I guess. The right word's demoralizing. Helped sucked the moral straight out of the place, poor girl never stood a chance. I have a couple other examples that were minorities but I won't get into them. Luckily we were sold off by the parent company and that insanity seems to have stopped. But ya not to totally go OT, but would anyone consider that a sexist/racist policy? Or is it okay because white men have had it so good, for so... well, since forever.

These two things aren't mutually exclusive, but it sounds like your company had a very poor conception of how Canada's labour laws work with regards to women and minorities. You can take a look at the CN Rail case from the 80s if you're more interested in how this relates to women, as well as one from 90s (whose name is slipping my mind at the moment) relating to minorities.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

Yes, I saw those as well... Distance yourself! Distance yourself!

I think the "university", like most media, is looking for content in this situation. I don't paint them all with a wide brush but when there is an opportunity to speak on something your passionate about people tend to do it. This woman speaks across the country on this issue and not specifically for Prager. They just produced the video and used her speech so they "own it". The question is, does it hurt her rep or help? It is getting exposure.

Time to change the 'tactless' avatar TBQH. The CP mob has spoken and bullied 2 female posters to change their avatars.

It's a perfect opportunity for you to show some class.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by scottish_flame

People in this world are too easily offended

If that's all you've gotten from the 2 huge threads based around this topic, then it's clear that you have missed the point.

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Thanks guys for the supporting data. Despite being taken off in a tangent by hare, nurses are still a very female dominated profession and are well paid. Gone are the days that female professionals get paid peanuts. Its good that we've dispelled that myth.

Haha, case closed then! Ignore all the fact that the Federal government has been passing varied forms of equal pay legislation for the last 8 years to try and address this issue. You should call them up right now and let them know that you've solved the problem by comparing nurses to engineers. No more studies required!

Check out this article from the Wall Street Journal about a recently concluded 13 year study out of McGill University. It's quite an interesting read and the end result of the study was the University paying back female employees a total of $20 Million in back pay.

Canadian employer spends 13 years to close gender gap in pay

Academic research attributes salary inequalities to several factors—from outright bias to women failing to ask for raises. Some research suggests that employers put a premium on working long hours, which puts women at a disadvantage because they are often responsible for more housework and child care.

Others contend that women choose less-lucrative fields. When Harvard University economist Claudia Goldin tested various theories, she found that pay disparities between men and women in the same occupation were a bigger factor than their choice of profession. That led her to conclude that the gap stems more from women making less in the same jobs as their male colleagues.

And sorry for driving this further off-topic but for this thread I completely approve of the de-rail because the entire premise of this RIP thread in the first place is a little creepy.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I actually wanted to comment on this because I think you're probably in a unique position to spot income disparity between men and women. I wonder if you looked back at say the last three-months of approved financing agreements and looked to see which gender had higher annual incomes and just how big of a gap there were in the number of clients from each gender. Obviously this isn't scientific because I doubt your application forms ask applicants to identify their gender, so you'd be largely doing this based on names alone, but it would be interesting (for me anyways) nonetheless.

This is purely anecdotal. But I have just as many couples where the women are making more than their husbands than vice versa. There is also still a ton of families where the women choose to be a stay at home mom. And I think that is awesome some people are embracing a traditional family arrangement, as I have never believed day cares are the right venue to raise a child. And in those situations, I have always found women are proud to proclaim they are a stay at home mom, as they should be. I will always contend, for the better part, mothers are always the better parent to raise children full time. And it is also a much more difficult job than 90% of the careers out there. I would never have the patience to do it, I know that much.

One thing though, that is really starting to skew the stats, in the last decade, we are seeing more and more women that are forgoing kids, and becoming full time career women, no different than men. And in that situation, I honestly see no income disparity. I have had just as many 200k+ senior female engineers in my office as men. Same with medical professionals. In fact, it is almost seeming to trend the other way. I see single Nurses, Dental Hygienists, and executive assistants, fields typically dominated by women, living in 500K + homes alone, making near or over six figure salaries.

The one huge thing I have noticed more than anything, is the incredible income most teachers are earning now. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but you never hear them complaining about wages anymore.

In the last decade, I would certainly say the gap has dramatically closed. But take my analysis with a bit of grain of salt. This is Calgary we are talking about, and I see people working at Tim Hortons making $15/16 hr. We definitely live in a bit of a bubble here.

[Flash Walken]

RIP Peanut's Banana Hammock avatar.

Thoughts and prayers.

[_Q_]

Do we seriously need two threads to bitch about the end of the YLYL thread? Let's move on.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Nursing has always been a female dominated profession, but increasingly the other medical professions are more and more female dominated as pylon mentioned. Highly paid educated fields like pharmacy, physiotherapy, nutrition, respiratory therapy, diagnostic imaging, and of course physicians with the explosion of female docs.

My graduating class had 6 or 7 guys and almost 50 women. Healthcare as an industry is increasingly female dominated. I don't hear many of these highly skilled independent educated women complaining of workplace discrimination.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Nursing has always been a female dominated profession, but increasingly the other medical professions are more and more female dominated as pylon mentioned. Highly paid educated fields like pharmacy, physiotherapy, nutrition, respiratory therapy, diagnostic imaging, and of course physicians with the explosion of female docs.

My graduating class had 6 or 7 guys and almost 50 women. Healthcare as an industry is increasingly female dominated. I don't hear many of these highly skilled independent educated women complaining of workplace discrimination.

Well that's all good and stuff, but studies show that these women working in female dominated professions consistently make less than their male counterparts in the same positions.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I've decided nurses or engineers don't make enough money. I make $75k per year in middle management in retail (36 hour week avg with paid days off as a perk getting me to 36 instead of 40) and I didn't have to invest $ into post secondary. Also, I would assume their professions require far more brain power and are definitely of far more importance to society than mine.
.

I am curious, what retail company do you work for and what do you do for them to make 75K/year in retail? Most retail management positions that I am aware of do not even come close to that number...

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

RIP Peanut's Banana Hammock avatar.

Thoughts and prayers.

et tu Brutus?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Do we seriously need two threads to bitch about the end of the YLYL thread? Let's move on.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Rhettzky

Well that's all good and stuff, but studies show that these women working in female dominated professions consistently make less than their male counterparts in the same positions.

Are you really this daft? Do you think unionised male physiotherapists have a different wage scale than female physiotherapists? Do you think female physicians have a different fee schedule than male physicians?

As I read these opposing views its becoming increasingly apparent that I live in a different world than some of you. In my world my grandmother is the wealthiest person I know. In my world my mother was the breadwinner who supported her family. In my world I work with educated independent confident female professionals on a daily basis.

In your world women are victims who are oppressed by men everyday. In your world we should feel sorry for women because they don't have the same opportunities as men and are second class citizens.

If I have a daughter I sincerely hope she has the attitude that she can accomplish anything with education and hard work, not the attitude that she is an opressed victim

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Are you really this daft? Do you think unionised male physiotherapists have a different wage scale than female physiotherapists? Do you think female physicians have a different fee schedule than male physicians?

As I read these opposing views its becoming increasingly apparent that I live in a different world than some of you. In my world my grandmother is the wealthiest person I know. In my world my mother was the breadwinner who supported her family. In my world I work with educated independent confident female professionals on a daily basis.

In your world women are victims who are oppressed by men everyday. In your world we should feel sorry for women because they don't have the same opportunities as men and are second class citizens.

If I have a daughter I sincerely hope she has the attitude that she can accomplish anything with education and hard work, not the attitude that she is an opressed victim

I hope my daughter can walk down the street at night without worrying for her safety. That's accomplished by addressing the issues that we're discussing right now and not blithely waving our hands at them with meaningless monickers like "my world" and "your world" and then hoping that your daughter has enough gumption to overcome systemic imbalances in privilege experienced by many women.

The fact of the matter is that threads like YLYL perpetuate a general theme of sexism and patriarchy which leads to all other terrible outcomes. If you had a daughter, why would you not support that?

[woob]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I hope my daughter can walk down the street at night without worrying for her safety. That's accomplished by addressing the issues that we're discussing right now and not blithely waving our hands at them with meaningless monickers like "my world" and "your world" and then hoping that your daughter has enough gumption to overcome systemic imbalances in privilege experienced by many women.

The fact of the matter is that threads like YLYL perpetuate a general theme of sexism and patriarchy which leads to all other terrible outcomes. If you had a daughter, why would you not support that?

Tinordi - Take a break from your high horse and read what he said. He's speaking from experience in his family and his profession that he sees great strength and empowerment with the women in his day to day life. Take a second from your stomping around and appreciate that he's giving us a positive example of strong women in his life and sharing that story with us.

He's trying to show us that there is progress being made, in his view, and we should embrace that and not immediately sh*t on it with "but this and that and imbalance and systemic"

Holy shmoly.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Nm

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Nm