I completely agree that excellent drafting is vital to building a championship team, however as a counterpoint, I'll just say that the last team to win the Cup without a top-three draft pick on the team was the 2001 Colorado Avalanche.
This stat is disingenuous. Seguin did not play a significant role on the winning Boston team. Nor did Brad Stuart push the 2008 red wine over the edge. And in that time, many of the top 3 draft picks on cup winning teams were acquired outside of the draft.
I get what you're trying to say - one elite player is required to win a championship - but that player does not necessarily have to be drafted by the winning team at the top of the draft.
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This stat is disingenuous. Seguin did not play a significant role on the winning Boston team. Nor did Brad Stuart push the 2008 red wine over the edge. And in that time, many of the top 3 draft picks on cup winning teams were acquired outside of the draft.
I get what you're trying to say - one elite player is required to win a championship - but that player does not necessarily have to be drafted by the winning team at the top of the draft.
This is true, however, which seems like the more realistic, plausible route to getting a top-three pick on the Calgary Flames: be bad and draft one in the next two years.
or
Improve steadily but surely, and then acquire one through trade or free agency.
Also,
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I think the Flames will be better than Canucks (who got a little worse) oilers (who got a little bit better) jets (continues to stand pat). I also think they will be better than Phoenix.
My call in the west would be this
I think the Flames will be better than Canucks (who got a little worse) oilers (who got a little bit better) jets (continues to stand pat). I also think they will be better than Phoenix.
My call in the west would be this
The Flames lost their best offensive weapon in Cammy. For the team to be as good as last year Gio will have to have another career year, Brodie will have to step up again, Monahan will have to play great again and Hartley will have to have the team giving 100% in every game. A lot of good things have to happen for the Flames just to be as good as last year. I just don't see how or why you think the Flames will be better than 4 teams in the west.
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This is true, however, which seems like the more realistic, plausible route to getting a top-three pick on the Calgary Flames: be bad and draft one in the next two years.
or
Improve steadily but surely, and then acquire one through trade or free agency.
While I think your point is fair, remember this:
Sam Bennett was repeatedly ranked in the top two during the year, and was as close to a "consensus" top 3 pick as you could get. Good fortune led him to us, but arguably we could have picked first, grabbed him, and that would've been completely reasonable.
So are you looking for the pick to be in the top 3? Or are you looking for us to have grabbed a top 3 prospect?
If you're looking for us to have simply picked in the top 3 then it's kind of arbitrary and meaningless. If you think we need a top 3 prospect... well, we have one.
I have never been a proponent of playing for the draft and building success around draft picks. I`d rather the team put more emphasis on making the right trades and picking up the right free agents. Drafting a team leader is more the exception than the rule.
If we look at the top 5 draft picks from 2006 to 2011 there have been very few players who have actually become critical components of their teams and have helped lead their teams to success:
2006 - Jonathon Toews
2007 - Patrick Kane
2008 - Steven Stamkos
2008 - Drew Doughty
2009 - John Tavares
2011 - Gabriel Landeskog
There are a bunch of players showing potential but failing to provide meaningful success:
2006 - Nicklas Backstrom
2006 - Phil Kessel
2009 - Evander kane
2009 - Brayden Schenn
2010 - Taylor Hall
2011 - Ryan Nugent Hopkins
2011 - Jonathan Huberdeau
And there are a lot of disappointments:
2006 - Erik Johnson (1st overall)
2007 - James van Riemsdyk (2nd overall)
2007 - Kyle Turris (3rd overall)
2007 - Thomas Hickey (4th overall)
2007 - Karl Alzner
2008 - Zach Bogosian (3rd overall)
2010 - Erik Gudbranson
2010 - Nino Niederreiter
2011 - Adam Larsson
2011 - Ryan Strome
I have never been a proponent of playing for the draft and building success around draft picks. I`d rather the team put more emphasis on making the right trades and picking up the right free agents.
Jesus Jones, are you serious? When's the last time a team has traded their way to a Stanley Cup? The Colorado Avalanche in the 90s?
Drafting high is not a sure thing, and never will be, but drafting well is still the best, and almost only, way to build a Stanley cup winner. Just look at the last decade of Stanley Cup winners, and see who those teams have build around. Pretty much all of them are high draft picks, and almost always their own.
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Jesus Jones, are you serious? When's the last time a team has traded their way to a Stanley Cup? The Colorado Avalanche in the 90s?
Drafting high is not a sure thing, and never will be, but drafting well is still the best, and almost only, way to build a Stanley cup winner. Just look at the last decade of Stanley Cup winners, and see who those teams have build around. Pretty much all of them are high draft picks, and almost always their own.
Between 2000 and 2011 I only see 5 players who were drafted in the top 5 that were critical rebuilding elements which subsequently led the team to win a Stanley Cup (M-A Fleury, Crosby, Toews, Kane and Doughty.) Spezza was close but they lost in the Stanley Cup finals.
I would say that the last team that traded their way to a Stanley Cup were the Boston Bruins in 2011. They added necessary key components to their team in 2008, 2009 and 2010 which led them to win the cup.
Last edited by calgarygeologist; 08-12-2014 at 12:51 PM.
Between 2000 and 2011 I only see 5 players who were drafted in the top 5 that were critical rebuilding elements which subsequently led the team to win a Stanley Cup (M-A Fleury, Crosby, Toews, Kane and Doughty.) Spezza was close but they lost in the Stanley Cup finals.
Except that you said that you dont believe in building through the draft and would rather do it throught trades and signings.
Let's quickly look at all the better drafter players of each winner in the last 10 years.
All these players were key cogs to winning (there were others too, I just wanted to show the best). And while they had other players that were acquired through trades, there is no way these teams win without drafting these guys. These types of players almost never move via trade, and the only way you sign thme is when they are older and expensive.
Quote:
I would say that the last team that traded their way to a Stanley Cup were the Boston Bruins in 2011. They added necessary key components to their team in 2008, 2009 and 2010 which led them to win the cup.
Signing UFA and trading can be a great way to complete a winner, but if you don't draft well, you never stand a chance. There is no way Boston wins without Lucic, Bergeron, Krejci, and Marchand.
Between 2000 and 2011 I only see 5 players who were drafted in the top 5 that were critical rebuilding elements which subsequently led the team to win a Stanley Cup (M-A Fleury, Crosby, Toews, Kane and Doughty.)
for critical pieces to actual cup winners, you're missing E. Staal, Malkin and P. Kane. but honestly, the cup winner criteria is too narrow for my taste because there's just not many of them. a championship is always the goal of course, but I'd say odds are the current Flames rebuild does not end up bringing Stanley back. I'd be happy with a strong, competitive team though, and there's a ton of top 5 players from 2000-2001 that made their squads significantly better. the list of these guys is way longer than the list of impact players from trades or low picks.
Ilya Kovalchuk
Jason Spezza
Rick Nash
Kari Lehtonen
Alexander Ovechkin
Carey Price
Phil Kessel
Nicklas Backstrom
Steven Stamkos
Alex Pietrangelo
John Tavares
Matt Duchene
Tyler Seguin
Ryan Johansen
Gabriel Landeskog
I would build a team around making the right trades and picking up the right free agents over trying to have success by drafting a team.
do you have examples of teams that have won the cup because of free agent signings? Trades are a little different, you can't include deadline deals because that trade would only impact from the deadline on. It would have to be deals that had an impact on a team for a few years resulting in a cup.
Chara is one example of a free agent signing that changed a franchise but they also drafted extremely well too so that doesn't really count. Making the right trades is good but it doesn't get you the core players you build around. Recently most free agent signings have been considered bad due to the fact that anyone good is going to command an over payment and that more then hampers a teams future.
Drafting players and bringing them up is not only how teams become good but how they stay good.
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I just don't see how or why you think the Flames will be better than 4 teams in the west.
They did get tougher in a tough conference, they could be healthier next year (glennie, gio, russell, wideman, jones were all hurt for significant amounts of time), rookies could break out, one could argue that goaltending is a significant upgrade, they could continue to build on the momentum since trade deadline last year.
Do you see how somebody could argue this, even if you don't agree with it?
I can see how someone could argue with it, I just don't see what makes you think they'll improve let alone stay the same. Removing goal scoring and replacing it with toughness may make the team harder to play against but may also make them easier to score against as the guys we picked up seem to play more of a physical game and aren't really defensive specialists. As for goaltending, I wouldn't know if Hiller is that significant of an upgrade at all as his numbers have declined since his bout with vertigo.
I enjoy when people disagree as long as they back it up. Just saying "I think they'll be better because I like them" doesn't really cut it.
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do you have examples of teams that have won the cup because of free agent signings? Trades are a little different, you can't include deadline deals because that trade would only impact from the deadline on. It would have to be deals that had an impact on a team for a few years resulting in a cup.
The signing of Ray Whitney and Cory Stillman are probably good examples of free agents signings that led the team to win the cup.
that's a pretty weak argument as neither of those players were "core" players. I guess you could argue they might have been but both Staal and Ward were drafted by that team and carried them to the cup.
Even if I were to agree that they were the reason the canes won the cup (which I'm not) finding one example is pretty bad since you've come up with more examples supporting my argument. Thank you for that by the way.
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I think you do need to make trades and sign players (usually support players) but you could also argue that teams only need to trade for players or sign UFA's because they didn't draft well enough.
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