The only thing I've seen work is people starting new physical hobbies. For example by wife went nuts over lindy hop (a dance) maybe 5 years ago and has been way fitter ever since. Others have taken up everything from historical fencing to scuba diving. I believe this actually serves a purpose beyond exercising; when you're really into what ever you're doing, it's pretty easy to just eat the minimum that you need to keep going.
this is exactly in line wiht my post just above.
Changing things that we do that bring us contentment can be difficult to build into our longterm framework. However, if the changes were actually enjoyed (ie. not just running on a treadmill now that i want to lose weight) then these changes can become part of your framework/routine over the long haul.
This is why i find people are almost always more willing to get involved in more exercise/physical exersion stuff when it comes to losing weight, as they might enjoy going to the gym, playing sports, etc, but it is difficult to ever find a healthy food routine that you enjoy more than your old unhealthy one.
I think the mods should start giving out warnings and banning people for saying people are fat. It's ridiculous that comments like this are acceptable
Nice backhanded way of "defending" overweight people.
You're right, there aren't any fat people in the world. It's an inappropriate label that applies to absolutely nobody.
Actually, I think it's ridiculous that you think I should get an infraction for using the word fat to describe people who are fat. Or should we just ride the euphemism treadmill forever?
I use the word fat because not overweight people are fat, and not all fat people are obese. But all fat people are fat! I meant exactly what I said. Had I chose a different word, it would not have conveyed the right meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate
Unfortunately I think societal acceptance will never come.
It really depends on what kind of acceptance you're looking for. Some parts of the fat-acceptance movement seem to be selling the idea that fat is just as good as thin, and I doubt I will ever buy into that. All else being equal, thin people are more attractive, better neighbors on an airplane flight, etc. Those who tell others that, for instance, "your perfect body size is the one that you are" are flat out lying. Sorry ladies, but if you're 300 lbs, you're a 2/10 max. You don't get to be a supermodel. You can shout as many times as you want that fat people are beautiful but that will never make it so.
As an extreme example you have brands like AdditionELLE effectively glamorizing obesity, and I don't think that message makes for a healthy society. Doesn't raising the self esteem of fat people simply make it easier for them to stay fat, and thus make it harder for them to lose weight? Aren't you just setting them up to be crushed when they realize that the idea of fat being a non-factor, on which their improved self-esteem is based, turns out to a delusion?
I don't see fat getting the same acceptance that gay people have, or that black people have. You might be born with the predisposition to be fat, but you are not born fat. And whereas black or gay are now no longer seen as undesirable traits, fat is. And in my opinion, there's no need for that to change.
On the other hand, if you're looking for fat people to be accepted as "not morally deficient", in the same manner that a depressed person is viewed as ill, or a person with deformities is viewed as unfortunate, then I think that is fair and attainable. But it directly contradicts the first type of fat acceptance, and thus a "total" acceptance that contains both is impossible.
it is difficult to ever find a healthy food routine that you enjoy more than your old unhealthy one.
I kind of disagree with this. Most junk food isn't the tastiest. Food that is both healthier and more enjoyable than junk food tends to be inconvenient though.
Will power might be a thing, but if it is then I think it's a trait that like most have a biological component, plus a psychological component that's influenced by environment. It might be able to improved with practice, it's probably weakened by overuse, by stress, by physical health.. it can probably be re-enforced by social support, family and friends.
As far as I've understood it, willpower is very much a thing, and more importantly it's a resource that's easily depleted.
In one example, volunteers who were asked to suppress their feelings as they viewed an emotional movie gave up sooner on a test of physical stamina than did volunteers who watched the film and reacted normally.
One study I can't find right now also made a strong connection between willpower and poverty. Essentially, having to constantly count your money and make small decisions about what you can and can't afford at every turn was found to be something that depletes ones willpower very quickly.
This in turn leads to a huge number of things, from apparent apathy to mental depression to overspending. And of course, unhealthy living.
Which of course makes it easy for people to get stuck in both positive and negative cycles. When you're doing well and don't have things eating at you, you'll have more energy to spend, making it more likely that things will go well for you in the future and you will have less things eating your willpower etc.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Itse For This Useful Post:
It really depends on what kind of acceptance you're looking for. Some parts of the fat-acceptance movement seem to be selling the idea that fat is just as good as thin, and I doubt I will ever buy into that. All else being equal, thin people are more attractive, better neighbors on an airplane flight, etc. Those who tell others that, for instance, "your perfect body size is the one that you are" are flat out lying. Sorry ladies, but if you're 300 lbs, you're a 2/10 max. You don't get to be a supermodel. You can shout as many times as you want that fat people are beautiful but that will never make it so.
As an extreme example you have brands like AdditionELLE effectively glamorizing obesity, and I don't think that message makes for a healthy society. Doesn't raising the self esteem of fat people simply make it easier for them to stay fat, and thus make it harder for them to lose weight? Aren't you just setting them up to be crushed when they realize that the idea of fat being a non-factor, on which their improved self-esteem is based, turns out to a delusion?
I don't see fat getting the same acceptance that gay people have, or that black people have. You might be born with the predisposition to be fat, but you are not born fat. And whereas black or gay are now no longer seen as undesirable traits, fat is. And in my opinion, there's no need for that to change.
And I was having a good day. I KNEW I should avoid this thread.
"Doesn't raising the self esteem of fat people simply make it easier for them to stay fat?" F*#$ NO!!!! Do you know how many OA meetings I have gone to where overweight people have said that they feel worthless inside, that they were a hopeless, worthless case. You know how you make people want to lose weight? You get them to love themselves enough that they want improve their lives. Most of my OA meetings had someone break down crying because they made to feel less than human, leading to depression, low self worth and those things are paralysing. I'll make you a bet that Thor has heard those exact same things in his circles. Making people hate themselves is the most counterproductive and totally, utterly cruel thing you can do to a person.
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Devils'Advocate For This Useful Post:
As an extreme example you have brands like AdditionELLE effectively glamorizing obesity, and I don't think that message makes for a healthy society. Doesn't raising the self esteem of fat people simply make it easier for them to stay fat, and thus make it harder for them to lose weight? Aren't you just setting them up to be crushed when they realize that the idea of fat being a non-factor, on which their improved self-esteem is based, turns out to a delusion?
Actually, if you think about the willpower factor (for example what I just posted about), it's probably the exact opposite.
An improved self-esteem is likely to leave them with more willpower to spend on other things than worrying about their looks, which paradoxically might lead them to get a new hobby or eat better or what ever.
On the other hand, fat shaming is an excellent way to make sure those people stay fat. (And no, I don't find anything wrong with the word "fat" either, even though I'm pretty close to being fat myself.)
Mann T, Tomiyama AJ, Westling E, Lew AM, Samuels B, Chatman J: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/17469900
“You can initially lose 5 to 10 percent of your weight on any number of diets, but then the weight comes back. We found that the majority of people regained all the weight, plus more...Diets do not lead to sustained weight loss or health benefits for the majority of people"
http://www.academia.edu/4796404/Tomi...111_spc3.12076
"Our review of randomized controlled trials of the effects of dieting on health finds very little evidence of success in achieving this goal. If diets do not lead to long-term weight loss or long-term health benefits, it is difficult to justify encouraging individuals to endure them."
Miller, WC: How Effective are Traditional Dietary and Exercise Interventions for Weight Loss http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10449014
“The data that do exist suggest almost complete relapse after 3-5 yr...The outcome parameters used...should be specific to chronic disease risk and symptomatologies and not limited to medically ambiguous variables like body weight or body composition.”
Methods for voluntary weight loss and control. NIH Technology Assessment Conference Panel
A panel of experts convened by the National Institutes of Health determined that “In controlled settings, participants who remain in weight loss programs usually lose approximately 10% of their weight. However, one third to two thirds of the weight is regained within one year [after weight loss], and almost all is regained within five years.”
Bacon L, Aphramor L: Weight Science, Evaluating the Evidence for a Paradigm Shift http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9
“More than 20,000 women maintained a low-fat diet, reportedly reducing their calorie intake by an average of 360 calories per day and significantly increasing their activity. After almost eight years on this diet, there was almost no change in weight from starting point (a loss of 0.1 kg), and average waist circumference, which is a measure of abdominal fat, had increased (0.3 cm)”
Field et. al Relationship Between Dieting and Weight Change among preadolescents and adolescents http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...12/4/900.short
“Findings from this study suggest that dieting, and particularly unhealthful weight control, is either causing weight gain, disordered eating or eating disorders...Our data suggest that for many adolescents, dieting to control weight is not only ineffective, it may actually promote weight gain.”
Studies about healthy habits leading to healthy bodies
Matheson, et al: Healthy, Lifestyle Habits and Mortality in Overweight and Obese Individuals
“Healthy lifestyle habits are associated with a significant decrease in mortality regardless of baseline body mass index.”
Steven Blair – Cooper Institute
“We’ve studied this from many perspectives in women and in men, and we get the same answer: It’s not the obesity, it’s the fitness.”
Glenn Gaesser – Obesity, Health, and Metabolic Fitness http://thinkmuscle.com/health/obesit...bolic-fitness/
“No measure of body weight or body fat was related to the degree of coronary vessel disease. The obesity-heart disease link is just not well supported by the scientific and medical literature...Body weight, and even body fat for that matter, do not tell us nearly as much about our health as lifestyle factors”
Paffenbarger et. al. Physical Mortality: All Cause Mortality, and Longevity of College Alumni http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM198603063141003
“With or without consideration of...extremes or gains in body weight...alumni mortality rates were significantly lower among the physically active.”
Those classified as underweight were 73% more likely to die.
Those classified as extremely obese with BMI of 35 or greater were 36% more likely to die.
Those classified as obese with BMI 30-34.9 had about the same risk of death.
Those classified as overweight with BMI 25-29.9 were 17% less likely to die."
You know how you make people want to lose weight? You get them to love themselves enough that they want improve their lives.
Okay, but the message isn't just love yourself - it's embrace your size whatever it happens to be (and also that society must embrace your size too). Surely that message, or implication, is counterproductive to the goal of weight loss.
Okay, but the message isn't just love yourself - it's embrace your size whatever it happens to be (and also that society must embrace your size too). Surely that message, or implication, is counterproductive to the goal of weight loss.
Yup. Weight loss shouldn't be the goal. Said that from the outset. I am a huge proponent of HAES. Our biology fights against weight loss. But our bodies love being fed proper nutrition and exercise. Working WITH your body will get better results than fighting against it.
Association of All-Cause Mortality With Overweight and Obesity Using Standard Body Mass Index Categories http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....icleid=1555137
"Grade 1 obesity overall was not associated with higher mortality, and overweight was associated with significantly lower all-cause mortality."
The National Academy of Sciences (report on Diet and Health)
"Most studies comparing normal and overweight people suggest that those that are overweight eat fewer calories than those of normal weight."
Quotes from Linda Bacon
(Linda Bacon, Ph.D., is an internationally-recognized authority on topics related to nutrition, weight and health. A nutrition professor and researcher, she holds graduate degrees in physiology, psychology, and exercise metabolism, with a specialty in nutrition.)
"Dropping the pursuit of weight loss isn’t about giving up, it’s about moving on. When you make choices because they help you feel better, not because of their presumed effect on your weight, you maintain them over the long run."
"Not one study has ever shown that diets produce long-term weight loss for any but a tiny number of dieters. Not one.”
A long, but important one:
“Commentators often attribute weight regain to people’s inability to maintain their diets over the long run: the old ‘no willpower’ problem. Yet this study was well controlled to support the women in maintaining their diets. Weight regain occurred despite maintaining their reduced-calorie diet! And lest you think these results are particular to low-fat dieting, check out the data from this study to other popular diets. After twelve months, Atkins dieters were eating 289 fewer calories compared to when they started the diet, Zone dieters were eating 381 fewer calories, LEARN dieters were eating 271 fewer calories, and Ornish dieters were eating 345 fewer calories. Yet all were steadily regaining weight over the last six months of the first year. And this despite an accompanying increase in exercise!”
"Over time, as you diet, stop dieting, diet, stop dieting, your body gets sick of it all and simply sets the leptin-meter to permanent low, producing less of the hormone regardless of which part of the diet cycle you’re in. Less leptin means your body isn’t working as effectively as it should to tame your appetite and stoke your metabolic machinery. Your setpoint has now been pumped up a notch." (setpoint referring to the weight your body naturally sits at)
"Fatter people tend to have a significantly greater proportion of one of the two main types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes, than the other, known as Bacteroidetes. Detailed molecular analyses show that the Firmicutes are much better at extracting calories from food."
and to add to that
"When researchers spent a year meticulously measuring the gut flora of the heavier volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating low-calorie diets, they actually discovered that the proportion of Firmicutes in their digestive tracts rose and the proportion of Bacteroidetes fell."
"The 17-year NHANES I study found that exercise and eating more were better defenses against heart disease deaths than exercise and restricting calories."
"...when researchers looked at a nationally representative group of more than 170,000 U.S. adults, they found the difference between actual weight and perceived ideal weight was a better indicator of mental and physical health than BMI. In other words, feeling fat has stronger health effects than being fat."
"A 1995 review of all the controlled weight loss studies for type 2 diabetics showed that the initial improvements were followed by a deterioration back to starting values six to eighteen months after treatment, even when the weight loss was maintained."
"Weight fluctuation is strongly associated with increased risk for diabetes, hypertension, and cardiovascular disease, independent of body weight. In other words, the recommendation to diet may be causing the very diseases it is purported to prevent"
"Everyone, fat and thin, can reduce their risk for health problems by making good lifestyle choices."
So it was right for you, but you wouldn't recommend it?
Let's say I was growing up in an abusive home. At 16 I run away, scrounge around for a job, eek out a decent life for myself. But never ever want to go back to that home. Too much trauma and heartache there.
Do I propose that the solution for all abused children is to run away from home? Or do I suggest that we look at a better way to reduce the suffering rather than my successful longshot? Change the goalposts.. The goal should not be to escape the abusive home but rather to stop the abuse.
The hell that was my late twenties and early thirties when I was battling depression, self loathing, and continued self destructive behaviours have left scars too deep to ever heal. I am NEVER going back there. Somehow, someway, I was able to get the weight off, and by the grace of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I have been able to keep it off thus far. But I think the best solution isn't to get people to try to take the same longshot, but rather to help people be the healthiest people they can be, both physically and mentally, no matter what their size. It's far more likely to be successful and is the compassionate thing to do.
Last edited by Devils'Advocate; 06-07-2014 at 03:19 AM.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Devils'Advocate For This Useful Post:
I'm not going to get into the debates of wether dieting works or not but from what I see a lot of people are simply stuck in a bad lifestyle. I stand in line for my coffee every morning and shake my head at what people believe is actually breakfast food. The body wasn't designed to start every day with disgusting breakfast sandwiches, deep fried potato patties, donuts, and muffins. Add in all the packaged food we eat now thats full of sugar, trans fats, and salt. Those things are okay in moderation but most of the foods we eat now are chock full of them and a lot of people are hitting their daily recommended limits of these before they even eat lunch. The sheer amount of sugar in these foods compounded with obesity is making type 2 diabetes an epidemic that's starting to become a problem in children. It's really starting to get out of hand.
People don't have to be model slim and just moderate exercise and a better diet including less packaged foods can do wonders for overall health.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 06-06-2014 at 06:47 PM.
I was kinda worried what EE was going to contribute, but that's all quite true. What the article also touched on but has not been discussed yet is that "If already obese people can rarely lose the weight, then there should be a renewed effort to keep people from becoming obese in the first place." I would love to see a sugar tax. Any sugar (fructose, dextrose, etc) ... Any product containing sugar should cost double what it does right now and put the money towards subsidies to make fresh fruits and vegetables cheaper. Education, education,education about nutrition. Have school cafeterias serve real food. I had the misfortune of being brought up on KFC and A&W. We shouldn't allow the next generation suffer the mistakes of past generations.
Is it a sheer biological issue that body itself will gravitate back to original/higher weight? Or is it the psychological issue that sustaining a change in diet and doing regular exercise in order to lose weight is just too difficult for a lot of people to maintain forever?
It's both. There's a psychological issue of course, change is hard and sustaining a change can be hard (some people adjust some people never do), if patterns are established really early (i.e. if someone's parents never fed them healthy food and trained them to eat junk) then it's even harder.
But there is a sheer biological issue as well, the body wants to get back to its maximum weight and will do whatever it can to try and do it, you can think and want but you can't control your body chemistry entirely with your mind, so it's a huge factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbsy
should be a motivator that 95% of all of us end up giving up on the tall task, but there is still a % that is able to push thru....
There's always a % in everything that go against the norm. Sometimes people with cancer experience spontaneous remission too. But 5% success rate in a treatment is no treatment at all, and while it's easy for people to just blame the 95% that do not succeed and deride them for their inadequacy, I think we can do far better than pretending there's a path to success when in fact for most people there isn't.
I've read interesting research about different kinds of intestinal bacteria that impact how food gets absorbed with experiments that resulted in mice that were fat despite not being overfed turning into mice that were typical weight for example, there's still tons left to be learned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbsy
Curious what % of addicts (drugs/alcohol) who go into treatment and get clean, are able to maintain that for a decade? Is there such a statistic?
Not sure about alcohol, but I mentioned earlier the success rates for self-quitting smoking (i.e. no medication, just cold turkey or slow reduction).. it was about the same, 4-7% success each attempt. But after 2 years there's an 80% chance the person will stay smoke free, where weight loss has no such increase after time (it's the opposite, longer usually results in more chance of putting the weight back on).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbsy
i actually don't feel this is a "will power" issue. i think we all create a lifestyle/routine that suits us and brings us contentment.
..snipped rest..
Yeah I tend to agree, a simple parallel would be an alcoholic. It's not about will power, it's about structuring your life so you don't fall into the same patterns and routines. But even with the best efforts in that respect, everything I've read still says the success rate overall is in the single digits (I'm sure you can find demographics that are better, it's easier when young, male, socioeconomic factors (there's a big correlation between poverty and obesity)).
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
but it is difficult to ever find a healthy food routine that you enjoy more than your old unhealthy one.
I've always wondered if there's a business to be had there. Sometimes it's a catch 22 in terms of effort and ability, time and stress, and healthy vs. garbage. I know for me when I'm doing well and eating healthy for a long time, junk food does become far less appealing. Make the barrier to entry, so to speak, lower.
Instead of terrible tasting shakes, or frozen dinners that are all carbs and awful veggies, have pre-made meals that are well made and the proper portions, special emphasis on great veggies. Maybe not the path of least resistance, but try to make it not the path of most resistance.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
As an extreme example you have brands like AdditionELLE effectively glamorizing obesity, and I don't think that message makes for a healthy society.
Making nice clothes for big people... yeah can't have fat people having nice clothes thinking they look nice. The worse the clothes, the more shame, the more weight they'll lose right? Doesn't matter what other redeeming qualities a fat person has, they sure shouldn't dress like the rest of us.
I think what would be even more beneficial to society is to require all #######s to wear burlap sacks. Then you could see them coming before they start talking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SebC
Doesn't raising the self esteem of fat people simply make it easier for them to stay fat, and thus make it harder for them to lose weight?
Yes because being depressed has been shown to be the best motivator. Being shamed all day, being judged by everyone in view, hating yourself because no matter what you do you can't accomplish what everyone expects you to, hating yourself more because the only good thing you can feel is the small bit of pleasure you get from some food, then hating yourself even further because the pleasure from food just made your hole even deeper, these are all the primary characteristics of people who climb mountains and invent light bulbs and write great literature.
Sorry fat people, you can't be happy until you're not fat.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to photon For This Useful Post:
