Vote swapping deal to deny Virtue/Moir gold?

[Voodooman]

If Moir and Virtue got jobbed, then Yuna Kim got flat out robbed. I'll freely admit that I don't know jack about figure skating, but didn't that Russian girl have to put her hand down on one of her landings? And Kim's run looked pretty good to the untrained eye.

They really need to look at the judging in this sport. It doesn't seem like skill and talent alone decide things, and that's a real shame when people train for years to get to the Olympics.

[SuperMatt18]

The whole making the votes anonymous thing was the stupidest move they could make. Now if it's fixed you can't point out who it may be. And even dumber to take out two random scores, take out the best and the worst since those are the two most likely to skew things either direction.

[GGG]

I think they need to show the real score card to everyone.

So you have each jump, spin, etc graded and multiplied by the difficulty. If I could see a detailed judging sheet then either you would reveal the bias or understand why the scores are where they are.

Worse than figure skating is the slopestyle and halfpipe where there are almost no set criteria for how points are accumulated. And the judges get to discuss with each other the scores before they are locked in.

More transparency in how the scores are arrived at would be a good thing

[jayswin]

So figure skating events are basically bull****, it seems. No real results, just a big game of where does your skate fit in with the corruption.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think they need to show the real score card to everyone.

So you have each jump, spin, etc graded and multiplied by the difficulty. If I could see a detailed judging sheet then either you would reveal the bias or understand why the scores are where they are.

Worse than figure skating is the slopestyle and halfpipe where there are almost no set criteria for how points are accumulated. And the judges get to discuss with each other the scores before they are locked in.

More transparency in how the scores are arrived at would be a good thing

Here you go. The scores for each element are available almost immediately online for those with access. After the event, the scores are available to everyone.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf

To summarize, Sotnikova beat Yuna Kim by about 5 points and most of that was because her skate was more difficult, including more triple jumps and a Lay Back spin that was ranked higher. The difficulty was enhanced because of the bonus points awarded for having jumps in the last half of the skate.

Also note that her stumble on the double toe was taken into account but as Kurt said, it's not a big deduction since the base rating wasn't high to begin with.

They were pretty much tied on Program Component Scores - basically the wow factor, taking into account choreography, interpretation, skills etc. This I don't really agree with but 8 of 8 judges disagree with me. It's hard to prove a scandal when all the judges are in agreement.

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Seems it is still possible to fix results, even with the new system

Like all judged events, the lowest and highest marks are thrown out.

[MRCboicgy]

After watching the Ladies Free here with a guy that has 35 yrs around the sport, he says "The free should have been Korea, Italian and then the Russian. As for the Russian, she hit all her jumps, but had nothing in between, bad edgework and basically her idea of artistry was waving her hands around."

No way she was 5 pts or 10 pts better than the other two.

Interesting what Jamie Sale and Christine Brennan have to say about it
https://twitter.com/JamieSale
https://twitter.com/cbrennansports

[GirlySports]

makes sense.

do you have the one for the ice dance?

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Meryl Davis has always reminded me of a poorly illustrated Jasmine from Disney's Aladdin.

Or a beautified Chucky

[kn]

What a pathetic "sport". Kim and Costner with completely clean skates and better artistry and get jobbed.

Canadian girls should devote their time, effort, and dedication to anything but figure skating.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by kn

What a pathetic "sport". Kim and Costner with completely clean skates and better artistry and get jobbed.

Canadian girls should devote their time, effort, and dedication to anything but figure skating.

When you love and are passionate about something, you don't give up on it because of politics and behind the scenes bull crap. You don't let it get you down, you keep doing the sport you love and you fight for change and attempt to shine light on the problems.

Giving up on the sport by those who want to do it wouldn't fix the problem, it would perpetuate it.

[Inglewood Jack]

for the figure skating enthusiasts here, thanks for taking the time to explain the rules and judging process. but all the frustration you see posted by viewers, media and analysts is why the sport will probably never grow beyond all 2 or 3 of you. we common folk watch sports/games to be entertained and get satisfaction when participants get what we think they deserve...it seems like everything about figure skating judgment and politics is set up to be largely counter to that goal.

to our untrained eyes we see Virtue/Moir and Yuna Kim skate so beautifully that the audience is just stunned silent. but because their more robotic competition had a few more technical elements, they get the gold even if their performance is infinitely more forgettable. it's like watching your hockey team dominate for 60 minutes but lose in OT due to a bad penalty call; annoying and unsatisfying.

and I've never seen a sport where the people surrounding it are so quick to call everything into question. I swear I can hear Kurt Browning's eye twitching uncontrollably whenever unexpected scores pop up on screen. can you imagine watching an NHL game where the colour commentator keeps questioning the integrity of every officiating decision? if the Herald ran stories each morning about how inconsistent the penalty calls were the night before? if the stars of the league gave post game interviews where they hinted that the outcome of the games is really beyond their control but they're resigned to the fact that there's nothing they can do about it?

so anyways, maybe there's something shady going on that they'll never prove, or maybe everything is being handled with complete objectivity and professionalism and we're all just whiny uneducated once-every-4-years spectators. all I know is how this sport makes me feel, and right now I'm glad we don't have to deal with it again until 2018.

[killer_carlson]

For those criticizing the judging - which critique I agree with - do you distinguish the shenanigans and politics of figure skating with steroid use in certain summer Olympic Sports (cycling, sprinting for example)?

Is it not just a different type of cheating to undermine the credibility of the sport? Should those sports not also be tossed out?

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

makes sense.

do you have the one for the ice dance?

Here you go. This is the free dance. It's a lot closer here.
I've posted the short dance before.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FD_Scores.pdf

Both teams had the same base points but Davis/White pulled ahead slightly on execution of elements. This generally means they ranked higher with deeper edges and better speed and ice coverage.

As reported there is the one judge that only gave Grades of +1 on a few elements. This means that judge deemed them good rather than excellent. Actually, earlier in the season that actually got a lot more +1s than here, so they have been progressing. The rating goes from -3 to +3.

No matter though, that judge's score was thrown out for being the lowest.

Going to the PCS marks I see that the judges agreed on all the categories with Davis/White getting near perfect scores for execution and interpretation. Again that seems to fit with the idea that the panel preferred a more traditional style with bolder moves. Consistent with what's been going on all season.

But my main point is that they were all pretty consistent and in agreement with each other.

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

so anyways, maybe there's something shady going on that they'll never prove, or maybe everything is being handled with complete objectivity and professionalism and we're all just whiny uneducated once-every-4-years spectators. all I know is how this sport makes me feel, and right now I'm glad we don't have to deal with it again until 2018.

The best way to fix this is to watch more than every 4 years. World Championships are coming up next month. The Grand Prix season (akin to the "regular season" ) has 6 events from Oct to Dec cumulating in the Grand Prix Final. There are the Canadian Championship next January and the Four Continents and European Championships next February.

I can spot the nuances of the sport because I've been watching since I was a teen, then started asking questions of those in the know, do research and regularly discuss things with friends. No different than how one learns any other sport.

[Itse]

All I'm hearing is blah blah and whine whine, nothing even resembling valid criticism. No-one I know who watches figure skating thought there was anything fishy about the standings. I even went and asked my wifes cousin, who coaches figure skating. Her comment was, "sure, the Russian got extra points from the home crowd advantage, but what are you going to do about that? Ban athletes from performing at home? In any case she was just as deserving as Kim."

Btw, if Russians were fixing the results, why was the eventual winner in second place after the short program? Only 0.3 points difference, I'm sure THAT would have been easy to fix...Oh I'm sorry, doesn't that fit your little conspiracy theory? Funny how that goes. (And the other Russian was 5th in free program and dropped to sixth. Absolutely makes sense if the Russians were fixing results.)

As an anecdote, in the Finnish studio Laura Lepistö (6th in Vancouver) was in tears after the gold medal performance, calling it things like "perfect" and "amazing". But I'm sure she's just pulling for the Russians, because, umm... Finns are so known for their love of everything Russian?

Also; the beauty of figure skating is not in the results. If you can't appreciate the sport unless the standings are exactly the way you think they should be, then nothing is lost by you not watching the sport.

I would also like to point out that hockey fans aren't really people who should start calling other sports ridiculous over reffing issues. Refereeing can never be perfect, but figure skatings issues are nothing like the gong show that's the NHL.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

For those criticizing the judging - which critique I agree with - do you distinguish the shenanigans and politics of figure skating with steroid use in certain summer Olympic Sports (cycling, sprinting for example)?

Is it not just a different type of cheating to undermine the credibility of the sport? Should those sports not also be tossed out?

I equate this more to the judging in Olympic boxing, which sadly has the same problem. I love watching boxing. Its just that as soon as you have judges at the Olympics you have a lot of money and prestige on the line and corruption finds a way!

Originally Posted by Itse

All I'm hearing is blah blah and whine whine, nothing even resembling valid criticism. No-one I know who watches figure skating thought there was anything fishy about the standings. I even went and asked my wifes cousin, who coaches figure skating. Her comment was, "sure, the Russian got extra points from the home crowd advantage, but what are you going to do about that? Ban athletes from performing at home? In any case she was just as deserving as Kim."

Btw, if Russians were fixing the results, why was the eventual winner in second place after the short program? Only 0.3 points difference, I'm sure THAT would have been easy to fix...Oh I'm sorry, doesn't that fit your little conspiracy theory? Funny how that goes. (And the other Russian was 5th in free program and dropped to sixth. Absolutely makes sense if the Russians were fixing results.)

As an anecdote, in the Finnish studio Laura Lepistö (6th in Vancouver) was in tears after the gold medal performance, calling it things like "perfect" and "amazing". But I'm sure she's just pulling for the Russians, because, umm... Finns are so known for their love of everything Russian?

Also; the beauty of figure skating is not in the results. If you can't appreciate the sport unless the standings are exactly the way you think they should be, then nothing is lost by you not watching the sport.

I would also like to point out that hockey fans aren't really people who should start calling other sports ridiculous over reffing issues. Refereeing can never be perfect, but figure skatings issues are nothing like the gong show that's the NHL.

These are gems. I especially like that the girl might have been given a few extra points but there is nothing that could be done. That just shows that these are good events to watch for entertainment, but not sports. There is no clear cut winner, and no loser...so why are we giving out medals?

Don't even get me started on the NHL comment. I mean sure, Reffing has issues, but the ref doesn't singlehandedly determine the outcome. I know you'll be providing anecdotes about bad calls and them doing things to influence games, but the fact is the athletes decide who will win and lose. In figure skating (and most of the judged events) its not the case.

[Voodooman]

Here's all that needs to be said about the legitimacy of figure skating judging (from CNN.com):

"It didn't help that one of the judges had in the past been suspended for a year for trying to fix an event at the Winter Olympics 16 years ago. Or that another is married to the head of the Russian figure skating federation."

Yeah, totally above board.

[FFR]

What I find somewhat funny is that prior to the women's event, a bunch of people were pointing to the idea that you can always pick the winner in figure skating - there are no surprises because the judges always know the winners. This was used as support that figure skating judging is corrupt. Now, a surprise winner occurs - something no one expected - which is what people were calling for earlier in the week... And now it's evidence of corruption. Can't be both ways.

Expected winner wins: Corruption! because the judges knew the winner ahead of time.

Unexpected upset: Corruption! Because she shouldn't have won and the expected winner (Kim, who did skate beautifully) should have.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by craigwd

Like all judged events, the lowest and highest marks are thrown out.

Is this seriously your response to fixing allegations?

It does absolutely nothing to impact what has been done since Figure skating was first an Olympic sport - have multiple judges vote with high or low scores. The only thing it does is usually eliminate home country bias.

You're too close to it Craig.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Is this seriously your response to fixing allegations?

It does absolutely nothing to impact what has been done since Figure skating was first an Olympic sport - have multiple judges vote with high or low scores. The only thing it does is usually eliminate home country bias.

You're too close to it Craig.

That was my response to your allegation that one judge was lowballing scores. His marks weren't even used.
The rest of the judges were in agreement with each other.

As for being too close to it. I'm not even in the sport. I just understand it a lot more than most of you.

[Flabbibulin]

So after reading everything and seeing what many of the experts had to say, it seems that it was actually non-subjective scoring that won the Russian the gold. Had it been exclusively a subjective score based on artistry, Yuna Kim would win hands down.

Even a layman watching the two skates can see that Yuna Kim is a league of her own when it comes to the non-technical elements. The Russian was just kind of waving her hands around between a lot of decent jumps... and what was with her music selection? That was awful.

Anyway, the system of scoring should be blamed. A skater can be good at jumps and below average at everything in between and still win gold.

Of course, the question then is how were they so close in the component scoring??