Iginla vs. Nieuwendyk: Who was the better player?

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Iginla actually attended camp, on his own risk. But he did miss a few games before signing a contract.

Thanks, my memory was hazy on that. Sort of remembered him missing time, but could have been pre-season or regular season games.

[Mister Yamoto]

531

[redforever]

Only difference with Nieuwendyk holding out compared to Iginla holding out is that management was dumb enough to make an example of Nieuwendyk and let it go on for a couple of months.

[dean00007]

Slamdunk, Nieuwendyk

[redforever]

I see a lot of comparison with Monahan and Nieuwendyk...in that they have that inate sense of positioning.

Nieuwendyk took one heck of a bruising for positioning himself in front of the net...so much so that Bearcat Murray built him sort of a flak jacket that he wore to protect his back from all the slashes he got in front of the net.

I forget if it was during the Flames first run to the Cup or their second run to the Cup where Nieuwendyk took a vicious slash to the mouth, resulting in a cut tongue and the loss of several teeth. I think he did miss one or two games but he came back with one of those full facial guards, ready to contribute.

I find it very hard to compare Nieuwendyk and Iginla. They played in different eras and they played different positions. While I don't consider Nieuwendyk a power forward like Iginla, he still brought many intangibles to a talent laden team. His face off prowess was almost untouchable and he could always be counted to show up both during the regular season as well as during the playoffs.

And the patented play he and MacInnis had was a beauty to behold.

All I know is I was not happy at all when Nieuwendyk was traded and he still remains one of my all time favorite Flames. So was Iginla. I really don't think I can choose between the two of them.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by redforever

I see a lot of comparison with Monahan and Nieuwendyk...in that they have that inate sense of positioning.

Nieuwendyk took one heck of a bruising for positioning himself in front of the net...so much so that Bearcat Murray built him sort of a flak jacket that he wore to protect his back from all the slashes he got in front of the net. .

Wasn't that Roberts?

I vaguely remember Roberts putting on something similar during his comeback in '96 and Ron MacLean doing a little piece on it for HNIC. Think he removed it later because he found it too restrictive though.

Maybe both of them had something similar at one point, Bearcat was crazy like a fox.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Wasn't that Roberts?

I vaguely remember Roberts putting on something similar during his comeback in '96 and Ron MacLean doing a little piece on it for HNIC. Think he removed it later because he found it too restrictive though.

Maybe both of them had something similar at one point, Bearcat was crazy like a fox.

Not sure if you mean the flack jacket or the slash to the mouth.

Not sure if Roberts also tried a flak jacket but know for sure Nieuwendyk did and it was Niuewendyk who got slashed in the mouth.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Sorry yeah, flak jacket.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Sorry yeah, flak jacket.

Bearcat was always looking out for his players. One night on the sports section of the news, he actually had the cameras show what Nieuwendyk's back looked like from all the slashes...not pretty.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by redforever

Only difference with Nieuwendyk holding out compared to Iginla holding out is that management was dumb enough to make an example of Nieuwendyk and let it go on for a couple of months.

You're way off. When Iggy held out, he was an RFA and had every right to withhold his services. When Nieuwendyk held out, he had a valid contract (like Radulov) and had to be suspended without pay.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by redforever

Only difference with Nieuwendyk holding out compared to Iginla holding out is that management was dumb enough to make an example of Nieuwendyk and let it go on for a couple of months.

Err, no. The only difference is that Iginla was a free agent while Nieuwendyk acted in violation of his existing contract. Management expected Nieuwendyk to honour the contract he had.

[Pointman]

Nieuwendyk's peak: Conn Smyth winner
Iginla's peak: Conn Smyth finalist

Nieuwendyk had higher peak

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Counting the Dead Puck Era as 1994-95 to present...

             Joe  Jarome
GP           726  1240
G            271   530
A            289   580
Pts          569  1110
GPG          0.37 0.43
PPG          0.77 0.90

Notes:
-The dead puck era is generally considered to have begun with the 1994-95 season and ascendancy of the Devils. The average NHL team still scored 3.24GPG that season. Removing this season would reduce Nieuwendyk's averages
- I counted to present day because scoring averages simply never recovered. The new rules in 2005-06 had only a momentary blip before settling back to the traditional ranges of the last 20 years.

- As with previous arguments, Niewuendyk had the benefit of being a support player on stacked teams and almost certainly facing lesser defencemen while playing with superior linemates, yet still falls behind Iginla as the only threat on abysmal offensive teams.

A poster posited that Iginla was the greatest goalscorer of the Dead Puck Era, a position I disagreed on. I argued that Nieuwendyk likely has a similar goals total over that same amount of time (the aforementioned 'Dead Puck Era') and likely had a higher goals per game.

You've compared Iginla's entire career to that of Joe's waning offensive days, and the comparison doesn't look that great.

Even with crediting Iginla with his most fruitful offensive seasons compared to Nieuwendyk's offensive decline, Nieuwendyk is still only .06 off of Iginla's Career goals per game total? This is somehow a dominant statistic?

Is the argument really that Iginla's entire goal scoring career is only .06 better than Nieuwendyk's declining offensive years during the lowest scoring period in hockey? At 37, Nieuwendyk put up 22 goals in 64 games when a Prime Iginla was scoring 41 in 81.

In 2005-2006, Nieuwendyk at 39 and utterly broken down scored 9 less goals than Iginla in 17 less games.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Nieuwendyk's peak: Conn Smyth winner
Iginla's peak: Conn Smyth finalyst

Nieuwendyk had higher peak

Iggy won a con smythe to but for a bad call in game six
Nieuendyk didn't win a con smythe but for a bad call in game six (foot in the crease in overtime)

If the con smythe is your argument that one is better then the other then you are saying that the only difference between them is two calls officials got wrong.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GGG

Iggy won a con smythe to but for a bad call in game six
Nieuendyk didn't win a con smythe but for a bad call in game six (foot in the crease in overtime)

It's a real shame that we're reducing 3 stanley cups over 17 years with 3 different teams and a Conn Smythe Trophy for most valuable player in the playoffs down to luck.

With their relative playoff success, Joe must be the luckiest guy in the NHL and Iginla must be the unluckiest.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by GGG

Iggy won a con smythe to but for a bad call in game six
Nieuendyk didn't win a con smythe but for a bad call in game six (foot in the crease in overtime)

If the con smythe is your argument that one is better then the other then you are saying that the only difference between them is two calls officials got wrong.

Iginla lost his Conn Smythe with infamous 0 shots performance in Game 7.

The Conn Smythe agrument is provided because people keep bringing up Iginla's ability to carry his team on his back and be more valuable to his team. It should be noted, that it was Nieuwendyk, not Iginla, who was honoured as the most valuable player to his team. I would argue, that Niewendyk's ability to be the most valuable on the stacked team trumps Iginla's ability to be most valuable on lesser team, as Iginla had to beat lesser competition to be his team MVP.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Iginla lost his Conn Smythe with infamouse 0 shots performances in Game 7.

The Conn Smythe agrument is provided because people keep bringing up Iginla's ability to carry his team on his back and be more valuable to his team. It should be noted, that it was Nieuwendyk, not Iginla, who was honoured as the most valuable player to his team. I would argue, that Niewendyk's ability to be the most valuable on the stacked team is most important than Iginla's ability to be most valuable on lesser team, as Iginla had to beat lesser competition to be his team MVP.

Tangible wins > 1 Hypothetical scenario

[Huntingwhale]

I'm genuinely surprised that Nieuwendyk has so much support. IMO, its Iggy all the way.

If people are going to mention Joe's Conn Smyth as a tipping point, you then also have to take into consideration Iggy's Hart votes. I don't buy the argument at all the Neiuwendyk had a better peak. Certainly more team success, but not a better personal peak.

Iggy was a 3 time Hart finalist. He was 15th in Hart voting in 2007. It's hard to find information on Hart voting, but from what I can see, Joe only had a 13th place finish in 1998. Never any top 10 votes. Regardless of his Conn Smyth win, I think it's easy to see who had the higher peak relative to their peers. And I don't think there is any debate that Iggy might very well have won a Smyth in '04 (although I think Kipper deserved it).

Also it should be taken into account that Iggy has 3 1st-team allstar selections, and 1 2nd-team selection. The only allstar selection Joe had is a all-rookie selection in 1988 (Iggy has that same selection as well). That means for 3 seasons, Iggy was the best RW in the game. He was in the debate for best player on the planet for a number of years. Joe never reached that peak, or even came close to it.

I think it's an interesting debate as to who had the better career. But I'm genuinly shocked that Joe has gotten so much support, especially considering the teams he played on. Iggy's feats during the dead puck era are pretty darn remarkable. Not to mention the consistent amount of Hart voting he has received. I wish there was a site that had a detailed listing of all award votings, as I think that is a great way to judge just how high a players peak was. But IMO it's Iggy all the way.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

The players are, at best, equals over their entire careers. If you're giving anyone a nod it should be Iginla who spent a couple of years as arguably the best offensive player in the NHL, an elite level that Nieuwendyk never quite got to.

Nieuwendyk was the third fastest player to reach 100 goals milestone, behind Bossy and Maurice Richard, and was the third player in league history to score 50 goals in each of his first two seasons (along with Bossy and Wayne Gretzky). He also led the league with 11 game-winning goals. If that's not "elite level", I don't know what is. Nieuwendyk was phenomenal before his first knee injury.

[ComixZone]

Iginla was/is the better player.