Only Florida has allowed more goals per game than the Flames - Page 7 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

EddyBeers · 03-19-2013, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

Wait, hang on. Hold up a second.

Am I to believe that we give up high quality scoring chances than Edmonton? Columbus? Really? Really? Our goaltending (including Kipper--but he's aging so I cut him slack) has been atrocious this year. Just laying this at the feet of everyone but the goaltenders is an excuse. Edmontons team defense is a complete joke... suggesting that we give up that many more juicy scoring chances is farcical.

Um yes because that is the case. The Flames give up more scoring chances than those team.

Brannigans Law · 03-19-2013, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Um yes because that is the case. The Flames give up more scoring chances than those team.

Is there data that can support either case? Does anyone track scoring chances league wide?

Parallex · 03-19-2013, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Um yes because that is the case. The Flames give up more scoring chances than those team.

So in addition to presumeably watching every Flames game you're also watching every Blue Jackets game and every Oilers game while maintaining a chart of scoring chances for each team using a universal definition of "scoring chance"?

Or is there a scoring chance tracking record (complete with definitions)somewhere online that I'm unaware of?

Street Pharmacist · 03-19-2013, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallex

So in addition to presumeably watching every Flames game you're also watching every Blue Jackets game and every Oilers game while maintaining a chart of scoring chances for each team using a universal definition of "scoring chance"?

Or is there a scoring chance tracking record (complete with definitions)somewhere online that I'm unaware of?

Don't the Oilers allow the most shots per game??

EddyBeers · 03-19-2013, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brannigans Law

Is there data that can support either case? Does anyone track scoring chances league wide?

The Oilers have averaged 20 a game against https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tTFVSVHc#gid=0 as of their road win in Chicago.

Not sure where you can find a Flames comparable.

Parallex · 03-19-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Don't the Oilers allow the most shots per game??

Yes they do. Dead last at 33.6 shots against per game average.

Roof-Daddy · 03-19-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

The Oilers have averaged 20 a game against https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tTFVSVHc#gid=0 as of their road win in Chicago.

Not sure where you can find a Flames comparable.

lol

That looks really, really official.

EddyBeers · 03-19-2013, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallex

So in addition to presumeably watching every Flames game you're also watching every Blue Jackets game and every Oilers game while maintaining a chart of scoring chances for each team using a universal definition of "scoring chance"?

Or is there a scoring chance tracking record (complete with definitions)somewhere online that I'm unaware of?

No I don't, but I watch enough Flames games to make a subjective opinion that they have to have either the worst team defence in the entire NHL or damn close. Based on that I assumed that the Flames are worse, much like the original poster assumed the Flames were better. This team is horrific, like all world bad, in terms of team defence in my opinion. When you have two dmen (Bouw and Brodie) who have even the foggiest clue on how to play defence and you have a forward group that would make Mr. Selke himself cry in his grave, it is not hard to discern that the Flames give up a tonne of scoring chances. It is definitely not ludicrous or farcical to assume that the Flames give up more scoring chances than Edmonton or Columbus.

Parallex · 03-19-2013, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

It is definitely not ludicrous or farcical to assume that the Flames give up more scoring chances than Edmonton or Columbus.

Absent any actual legitimate scoring chance data I would think the opposite... that it is ludicrous and/or farcical to assume that the Flames give up more scoring chances than Edmonton or Columbus particularily when Edmonton and Columbus are notable worse at shot prevention for which we do have league wide tracked data.

zamler · 03-19-2013, 04:24 PM

So let me see if I have this right. Calgary just needs to get a real goaltender and toss that useless bum Kiprusoff to the curb and hello playoffs. Sure. Like last season when Kipper played excellent, the Flames strolled into the post season no problem.

Flash Walken · 03-19-2013, 04:28 PM

I would say the oilers give up more shots but not better/more scoring chances.

They are a worse 5-5 team than Calgary, but I think that's because of the makeup of the forward group and not necessarily because of shot quality.

Something to keep in mind: Dubnyk has faced the fifth most shots against in the league this year and has a .919 save percentage.

Either we are to assume that Devan Dubnyk is having a Vezina calibre season, or, the quality of those shots is lesser than those given up by the flames.

Going to be tough reconcile these things 'round here.

Parallex · 03-19-2013, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Something to keep in mind: Dubnyk has faced the fifth most shots against in the league this year and has a .919 save percentage.

Either we are to assume that Devan Dubnyk is having a Vezina calibre season...

I don't think .919 is Vezina calibre season so much as it's an above average season.

Flash Walken · 03-19-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallex

I don't think .919 is Vezina calibre season so much as it's an above average season.

I'm saying, it's difficult to reconcile these 3 things:

1) The Oilers allow more shots per game than Calgary
2) Those shots are routinely of higher quality than those given up by the flames
3) That in spite of a greater number of better quality chances, Devan Dubnyk is still outperforming all of Calgary's goalies by a significant margin.

I've watched a few oiler games this year and they are a weak team, but I would agree with what EddyBeers sees. I don't think the Oilers give up better scoring chances than Calgary does routinely, I think it's the reverse.

EddyBeers · 03-19-2013, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallex

I don't think .919 is Vezina calibre season so much as it's an above average season.

Well Dubnyk is 7th amongst starting goaltenders for SV%.

It is I think acknowledged by most hockey observers that the Flames are probably in the lower 3rd of the league in terms of team defence and are likely in the top third of the league in number of scoring chances allowed per game.

If the Oilers give up even more scoring chances than the Flames, Dubnyk's numbers probably are even better than 7th in the league, probably somewhere around 5th.

If the Oilers actually do give up a tonne of scoring chances and are in fact one f the worst defensive teams in the league as some here think, surely to Dubnyk is on the verge of having a Vezina trophy type season, or at least is in the discussion.

Parallex · 03-19-2013, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddyBeers;

It is I think acknowledged by most hockey observers that the Flames are probably in the lower 3rd of the league in terms of team defence and are likely in the top third of the league in number of scoring chances allowed per game.

If the Oilers give up even more scoring chances than the Flames, Dubnyk's numbers probably are even better than 7th in the league, probably somewhere around 5th..

Alright... Links to these "hockey observers"? I want to see who these people are and how they came to that conclusion. If it's just some bum who drools out msm narratives then honestly I couldn't care less what they say. If they put the work in to demonstate something I'll take a look and give it due consideration.

I really can't say for sure who has a better defensive game... Because who wants to watch the Oilers

. But the stats say they're worse once you take goaltending out of the equation.

And Dubnyk's numbers are his numbers if he's 7th then he's 7th and by extension literally can't be 5th.

EddyBeers · 03-19-2013, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallex

Alright... Links to these "hockey observers"? I want to see who these people are and how they came to that conclusion. If it's just some bum who drools out msm narratives then honestly I couldn't care less what they say. If they put the work in to demonstate something I'll take a look and give it due consideration.

I really can't say for sure who has a better defensive game... Because who wants to watch the Oilers

. But the stats say they're worse once you take goaltending out of the equation.

And Dubnyk's numbers are his numbers if he's 7th then he's 7th and by extension literally can't be 5th.

It is hard to find stats on scoring chances, I put up the numbers as compiled by the Edmonton Journal and posters laugh at it. Eventually the NHL will bring in some more advanced stats than the numbers of time the puck hits the net as an indicator of team defence. But you are right, if goaltenders did not exist, the Oilers would let in about 5 more goals a game than the Flames. Until that day it is a pretty subjective thing, especially when main stream media types cannot be counted on because you could careless what they say. If the main stream media who follows hockey cannot comment on the Flames team defence and there are no stats it literally is something that nobody could ever comment on.

Better to assume that Kipper has started to really suck I guess.

Parallex · 03-19-2013, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

especially when main stream media types cannot be counted on because you could careless what they say.

I only couldn't care less if it's just blathering. If there's a msm guy that's made case based on facts and not truthiness I'll gladly accept it.

spiteface · 03-19-2013, 09:46 PM

at least florida has good weather

V · 03-19-2013, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Well Dubnyk is 7th amongst starting goaltenders for SV%.

He's bottom half amongst starters in ESSV%, the stat that actually matters for goalies.

He's really not having that good of a season. He's just benefitted from an unsustainably high SV% on the PK. That should even out over the season.

Five-hole · 03-19-2013, 11:58 PM

I have to agree with the chances the Flames give up are Grade AAA chances.

We've heard the lament a few times this season -- although maybe it's me talking to myself -- that every time the opposition gets a scoring chance it's in the back of the net. Is that goaltending? Maybe. Sometimes it's certainly seemed that way.

It's more likely that it's the quality of opportunities. I'm thinking about the 6-2 game in LA. I could have scored on some of those.

Our breakdowns may not be as frequent, but they are legendary.