Well for starters, the wide spread sexual abuse of minors by priests and other hierarchy members throughout the entire globe that has been well documented by the Vatican.
I'm sure there are other people hoping for historical secrets and conspiracies, but that is still one bombshell of an issue despite it coming to light in the last decade. My guess is we've only seen the tip of the iceberg on that issue.
True enough. But I suspect that any documented evidence (if there is in fact documentation) for this conspiracy is not neatly filed and catalogued in either the Vatican Library or the Vatican Secret Archives.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I think you will find that virtually every Catholic also recognises a that despite his vaunted position as Christ's representative on earth, he is still a flawed human being. There is a common misconception that "holy writ" is the same as "perpetually true", and not subject to change or adaptation. Rightly or wrongly, Catholics—along with the majority of Protestant Christians—have a very nuanced understanding of papal and scriptural authority by which "holy writ" is fairly circumstantial, and frequently subject to revision and reinterpretation. If you read diachronically through the Councils, the Catechisms, and statements of doctrine from most churches you will discover that they are not static—they are adaptations of one another.
Only in the eyes of those who are already strongly opposed to papal authority. I would expect that for the vast majority of catholics, and for the vast majority of observers who do not strike such an adversarial pose in the first place, this does nothing whatsoever to undermine the office. I think you will find that most Catholics, and most religious people generally have a much more tempered and realistic perspective of things, and not so rigidly black and white as you would imagine that they should.
Because historically—and this is at the very heart of Christian doctrine—it is believed that God prefers to work through people's weaknesses, flaws, and shortcomings in order to achieve his purposes. If anything, Benedict's resignation is a testimony to human frailty, and it will likely most commonly be interpreted by the church and sympathetic onlookers as such; there is no shame in surrendering to his insurmountable circumstances, regardless of whether or not he was "chosen by God". The Bible itself rigorously attests to the fragility and ineptitude of humanity, and read in a Christian context it celebrates the power of God through human weaknesses. Why should the pope be any different? Regardless of whether you believe it or not, why should God suddenly alter course from his well established modus operandi? I'm quite sure that no Catholic will lose any sleep at all over your insistence on this as an admittance failure, especially considering that you clearly have no real understanding of how the system works.
It's a question that no Catholic will ever even consider worth posing, because in their minds God DID choose him, and his decision to abdicate is not in any way a nullification of that choice. Your arbitrary insistence that the Church should do things to suit your expectations is nothing more than a straw man.
I don't think you can essentially argue 'well most catholics know full well he's just a man and his word isn't the word of god' but then not think that this doesn't undermine the foundation of the church in the lives of its faithfull, I agree most catholics have a more 'nuanced view' of both the pope and church, but what nuanced means is that their faith is less profound, that the church is no longer their sole moral authority.
Not saying this has anything to do with Benidict's resignation at this point, but this was a fascinating documentary about the wide spread sexual abuse of minors throughout the Catholic church. It really goes into some detail about how (prior to landing the gig as Pope) Ratzinger was in charge of investigating all claims of sexual abuse on behalf of the Vatican. He above all others in the Church is privvy to the numbers and the details of the far reaching scandal world wide.
The film is titled "MEA MAXIMA CULPA SILENCE IN THE HOUSE OF GOD" and is from the makers of "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room"
It focuses on a specific case of an American Priest who sexually abused 200 children. When the local branch of the Church finally reached out to the Vatican to ask what to do (IE turn him in to the police) they're told things of that nature are dealt with internally and the Church prefers to relocate and attempt to recondition offenders. From there it examines how wide spread the cases are around the world and how the Vatican is directly covering up what should be gross criminal acts in the nations where they occur.
Shocking stuff.
Last edited by Captain_Obvious; 02-15-2013 at 04:16 AM.
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Yeah, I find it quite naive to say that he's just retiring because of advanced age. There is something going on here and they want him as a former pope when it hits.
The documentary saw a limited release in September and November but I believe it's set to air on HBO in the US very soon.
Interesting timing with the Pope's resignation and if this is widely viewed I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more questions come up... but at the end of the day a lot of these allegations are old news. This has been a brewing scandal for a long time.
I don't think you can essentially argue 'well most catholics know full well he's just a man and his word isn't the word of god' but then not think that this doesn't undermine the foundation of the church in the lives of its faithfull[sic.]
Actually, I can.
· Because perspectives of authority WILL NOT CHANGE with Benedict's resignation. NOTHING is undermined because you are imagining a situation that simply does not exist.
· Because the "authority" and the "foundation" of the Church are not simply determined as a matter of conventional accuracy; nor are the subject to circumstances. Again, you are constructing a straw man and making an argument from incredulity to support the notion that the events in question will have a dramatic effect on Church doctrine. It will not, because Catholics—and most other Christians for that matter—do not employ structures of authority that coincide with your own expectation of how they should operate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
... I agree most catholics have a more 'nuanced view' of both the pope and church, but what nuanced means is that their faith is less profound, that the church is no longer their sole moral authority.
"Less profound"??? You quite frankly are spewing nonsense. It may strike you as less profound or somehow shallower in purpose of meaning, but no, "nuanced" is not a dilution or capitulation of worldviews. It is a recognition of complexity and mystery.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
"Pope Benedict, Joseph Ratzinger, has scheduled a meeting with Italian President Giorgio Napolitano for Saturday, February 23 to discuss securing protection and immunity from prosecution from the Italian government, according to Italian media sources."
"Pope Benedict, Joseph Ratzinger, has scheduled a meeting with Italian President Giorgio Napolitano for Saturday, February 23 to discuss securing protection and immunity from prosecution from the Italian government, according to Italian media sources."
C'mon man. If you're going to post that, at least have it from a credible source. He already has asylum in Vatican City - no need to go outside the boarder to Italy. The whole article is BS. Certainly the church has done some really bad things in the past, but when articles like that come out that are conjecture and purely made up conspiracies where nobody picks it up, it's annoying because it feeds propaganda despite no credibility whatsoever.
C'mon man. If you're going to post that, at least have it from a credible source. He already has asylum in Vatican City - no need to go outside the boarder to Italy. The whole article is BS. Certainly the church has done some really bad things in the past, but when articles like that come out that are conjecture and purely made up conspiracies where nobody picks it up, it's annoying because it feeds propaganda despite no credibility whatsoever.
I was wondering the same thing. Vatican City is technically an independent state. Does Italy even have jurisdiction there?
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Last edited by FlamesAddiction; 02-17-2013 at 11:29 PM.
I was wondering the same thing. Vatican City is technically an independent state. Does Italy even have jurisdiction there?
I'm pretty sure Italy has an agreement that they'll defend Vatican City in the event of a war, much like Canada and the US. The article is a fraud, plain and simple. Condemn the church or anyone else based on facts, not fabrication.
I was wondering the same thing. Vatican City is technically an independent state. Does Italy even have jurisdiction there?
With no airport the Vatican is beholden to Italy entirely, that said the upper echelon of the Vatican, Italys politics and the mafia are so intermingled that Italy would do nothing even if the pope were photographed buggering an alter boy in St Peters.
If you get a chance watch 'Il Divo' about Giulio Andreotti's reign as PM
Last edited by afc wimbledon; 02-18-2013 at 01:00 AM.
In the past several days, I have experienced many examples of being humiliated. In recent days, I have been confronted in various places by very unhappy people. I could understand the depth of their anger and outrage — at me, at the Church, at about injustices that swirl around us.
Thanks to God’s special grace, I simply stood there, asking God to bless and forgive them.
In these circumstances I prefer the Hebrew God (pre Jesus) that would smite, humiliate and torture those that were deemed naughty in his view. This POS doesn't deserve forgiveness nor should he be able to have the unmitigated gall to "forgive those who are angry" at him. He should be locked away for the rest of his life along with the vile animals that he protected. He should also have regular rotating cell mates: when they rape him they are switched to another cell only to be replaced with more of the same. Then and only then he can forgive them for what they have done to him.
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