Sales tax in Alberta?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

What you said was that governments should follow the example of businesses and households and cut spending, increase taxes, and avoid borrowing during tough economic times. That what happened during the Great Depression and that also what's happening in the UK right now.

Or, like households, earn more money and have it be from a more stable source so there isn't so much variance during tough economic times.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

Alberta budget in 2003: $20.8 billion with $21.9 billion in revenues
Alberta budget in 2012: $41.1 billion with $40.3 billion in revenues

Does anyone know where to get the spending break down for these numbers?

I have trouble believing that inflation and labour caused the budget to nearly double in 10 years. My salary certainly didn't, and neither did my capital budgets at work.

Well lets look at the statistics from Statistics Canada, from 2003-2010 the average individual income in Alberta went from $26,500/year to $36,760/year, representing a 38% increase, not even factoring in the past two years of growth. It would be fair to say that salaries have increased by roughly 45-50% over the previous decade.

Furthermore the population of people who file taxes in Alberta and their dependants has increased over the same period as well from 3,075,990 in 2003 to 3,544,590 in 2010, representing a 15% increase in population... which is a double edged sword because the government generates more revenue through taxation but also supplies more services such as health care and infrastructure.

Then factor in inflation, increased cost of fuel and playing catchup with infrastructure and you can see how useless raw numbers without a frame of reference are at proving a point.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

People can't offer examples because the government has a huge budget for things like infrastructure and yet no list of projects or system to determine which projects are needed. Anyone who has ever been involved in criticizing a government project has heard the rumours that criticism will cause the project to be delayed or cancelled. It is easy to say that you still want the South Calgary hospital or you still want the highway 63 expansion but there are thousands of other projects on the go and in the pipeline. In my area there are plans to twin the rest of highway 43 (started the other day), discussions of twinning highway 40 for 20 km or so. They are building new schools and a $600 million hospital. Projects like this are going on in every community and maybe some of them should be looked at. Unfortunately there is no way to look at what is on the go and what is coming up. They are just announced when it is convenient for the government.

What are you proposing? Some sort of debate in the Legislature (or, much worse, a referendum) on every government expenditure over x dollars? Government would grind to an absolute halt.

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

The other major component of government spending is salaries, both the value of the salaries and the number of salaries on the books. I think that they need to do a better job negotiating with the different departments. So far they have taken a hard line against the doctors but in the past I don't recall them ever standing up to other groups and that has to start now.

I look forward to reading your treatise on effective collective bargaining strategies.

[yads]

Agreed, that's definitely where we need to walk a fine line. I know I've been flogging this to death, but public sector salaries have completely gone out of whack with the private sector in this province. That would be a great place to start. I agree that we're unlikely to balance the budget with cuts alone.

EDIT: was replying to Slava's post, forgot to quote it.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Well lets look at the statistics from Statistics Canada, from 2003-2010 the average individual income in Alberta went from $26,500/year to $36,760/year, representing a 38% increase, not even factoring in the past two years of growth. It would be fair to say that salaries have increased by roughly 45-50% over the previous decade.

Furthermore the population of people who file taxes in Alberta and their dependants has increased over the same period as well from 3,075,990 in 2003 to 3,544,590 in 2010, representing a 15% increase in population... which is a double edged sword because the government generates more revenue through taxation but also supplies more services such as health care and infrastructure.

Then factor in inflation, increased cost of fuel and playing catchup with infrastructure and you can see how useless raw numbers without a frame of reference are at proving a point.

Yes it's important to keep everything in reference.

In 2000 the average public sector worker in Alberta was paid roughly the same as in other provinces.

Since 2000, Alberta public sector salaries have increased 119%, or double the rate as any other province. Private sector salaries are estimated to have increased about 50% in that period.

Since 2000, Alberta revenues have increased by 8.5 billion, and public sector wages have increased by 8.1 billion. In other words, 95% of the increase in revenues has gone directly into the pockets of public sector workers.

As a percentage of spending, public salaries have increased from 25% of the total budget to over 45% in just 10 years.

And of course, as you noted, the population has increased dramatically. By over 24% in the past ten years How has our public sector responded? Well, it's grown by 40%, or almost double the rate of population growth.

So it now takes more employees, making considerably more money, to deliver services much comparable to other provinces and still comparable in outcomes to a decade ago.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

The study you are quoting also just looks as base numbers, it looks at the amount of money that was spent on the public sector in real dollar terms, it ignores the fact that Alberta had a hot economy relative to the rest of Canada leading to higher costs of living and instead just unilaterally compares Alberta's growth in public sector spending to that of the rest of Canada. Past that the increased spending could also be explained by the fact that in the mid-90s the public sector had their salaries cut and there was a hiring freeze. The percentage rate is going to be elevated in order to make up for the shortfall.

The fact is that everyone wants to get more while spending less and it just doesn't work that way.

I actually agree in part that Alberta has a well compensated public service but the truth is that isn't such a bad thing - it isn't as though everyone who works for the government is living in a mansion with a butler.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Makarov

What are you proposing? Some sort of debate in the Legislature (or, much worse, a referendum) on every government expenditure over x dollars? Government would grind to an absolute halt.




I look forward to reading your treatise on effective collective bargaining strategies.

I am not proposing a debate in legislature or anything remotely close. I am merely trying to explain to Slava why it is hard for anyone but the government to suggest savings. Slava has stated several times that the Wildrose proposals for spending cuts are short on details. I posit that they are short on details because those details are tightly guarded secrets of the current government.


As for collective bargaining, I do not have any expertise. I bargain for my own salary once a year and discuss the salaries for positions that report to me, that is all.
It is my opinion though that it is easier to say no when you don't have the money then when you do. It certainly applies in my industry and I can't think of a reason that it doesn't also apply to collective bargaining. From personal observation, the auto workers seem to get lower raises when the auto industry is doing poorly.

If you feel that I am wrong on either point though please respond with your reasons. This is a discussion board after all.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I am not proposing a debate in legislature or anything remotely close. I am merely trying to explain to Slava .........

Well now there's the issue...

[Slava]

I'm way more open minded than you guys give me credit for though. Just think, I came away from the Economic Summit agreeing with Jack Mintz...you couldn't have seen that coming!

The reason I don't believe the Wildrose budget cuts though is because they're smoke and mirrors. I read the documents and pulled out a calculator and it doesn't balance. The estimates are too optimistic and they would obviously be cutting deeper than they care to admit, likely because the politics are better that way.

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Slava

The reason I don't believe the Wildrose budget cuts though is because they're smoke and mirrors. I read the documents and pulled out a calculator and it doesn't balance. The estimates are too optimistic and they would obviously be cutting deeper than they care to admit, likely because the politics are better that way.

I'm not sure how you can tell the WR numbers don't make sense but the PC's do. I don't look at the numbers too closely because unless you work for the government, you cannot tell whether X amount for running a hospital make sense or not.

[chemgear]

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/po...646/story.html

An opinion poll by ThinkHQ Public Affairs finds 72 per cent of Albertans surveyed would vote against introducing a provincial sales tax if the idea was brought forward in a referendum.

Seventeen per cent said they would back a PST, nine per cent were unsure and two per cent wouldn't vote.

"It's overwhelming," pollster Marc Henry said in an interview Wednesday.

"From a political perspective, bringing in a sales tax would be the end of the Conservatives in Alberta."

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by chemgear

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/po...646/story.html

An opinion poll by ThinkHQ Public Affairs finds 72 per cent of Albertans surveyed would vote against introducing a provincial sales tax if the idea was brought forward in a referendum.

Seventeen per cent said they would back a PST, nine per cent were unsure and two per cent wouldn't vote.

"It's overwhelming," pollster Marc Henry said in an interview Wednesday.

"From a political perspective, bringing in a sales tax would be the end of the Conservatives in Alberta."

They'd never be stupid enough to hold a referendum. They'd appeal the law requiring a referendum, and then implement it as an "emergency deficit reduction measure."

[ken0042]

‘We’re not introducing a provincial sales tax, period’: Redford

Premier Alison Redford appeared Thursday to rule out any possibility of her government bringing in a sales tax despite pressure from economists and some former cabinet ministers to do so to reduce the province’s dependency on oil.

“We’re not introducing a provincial sales tax, period,” she told reporters following a Conservative caucus meeting at Government House in Edmonton. “I’ll say it again tomorrow if you would like.”

[Slava]

Originally Posted by darklord700

I'm not sure how you can tell the WR numbers don't make sense but the PC's do. I don't look at the numbers too closely because unless you work for the government, you cannot tell whether X amount for running a hospital make sense or not.

I don't believe the PC numbers, but I trust that they're giving is an honest budget update. I don't agree with their electoral budget and projections though, and in all honesty I would say the Liberals are the only party that was completely forthright with voters in that regard.

I happen to disagree with a number of the budgetary priorities laid out by the Liberals last year, but you can't deny that they were probably telling the truth. They campaigned on a tax increase, among a few other things I didn't care for, so at least voters knew in advance what they were getting.

[Resolute 14]

Given the PC's history of trustworthy budget updates in the past, I can certainly see why you trust them so now....

[c.t.ner]

Although I think the idea of a small sales tax is a decent option to help stabilize the provinces income, at this point I really, really hope that the PCs don't institute a sales tax over the next four years just to see the spin from the opposition.

[mykalberta]

I think they would rather raise income tax levels then a sales tax even if a sales tax is a more "fair" tax.

Sales tax in Alberta has been likened on some conservative forums as the GST to Mulruney.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Given the PC's history of trustworthy budget updates in the past, I can certainly see why you trust them so now....

Have they been dishonest with us before? I don't like the CPC federally, but I wouldn't go so far as to accuse them of lying about the budget. I would imagine that kind of thing would be front page news and a pure scandal?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Slava

Have they been dishonest with us before? I don't like the CPC federally, but I wouldn't go so far as to accuse them of lying about the budget. I would imagine that kind of thing would be front page news and a pure scandal?

He's talking about the provincial PC's historically very poor ability to make budget forecasts. They've often missed by multiple billions in either direction.

Personally, I liked it better when they were making conservative forecasts and coming in with large surpluses than what they're doing now.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

He's talking about the provincial PC's historically very poor ability to make budget forecasts. They've often missed by multiple billions in either direction.

Personally, I liked it better when they were making conservative forecasts and coming in with large surpluses than what they're doing now.

Ya, well forecasts (regardless of who makes them) are notoriously terrible. I see this on a daily basis in the stock market and when we as a province rely on commodity prices that is to be expected. Saying that they have intentionally lied though is a whole other realm. If any government starts to out and out lie about the budget, there should be criminal ramifications.