Windows 8 Tablets: iPad killer? iPad Competitor? Windows Killer?

[Rathji]

The difference between those products and what I am thinking is this:

Intel Atom Z2760 processor and 2GB RAM

and

3rd Gen Intel Core TM i5 Processor and 4GB RAM

Thats not saying that they are not decent devices for what people use tablets for, but in order to have a real use beyond simple email, web and media consumption they need to be powerful enough to handle real use. If you can get the i5 for the price of an iPad, then that's what I am thinking of.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Rathji

The difference between those products and what I am thinking is this:

Intel Atom Z2760 processor and 2GB RAM

and

3rd Gen Intel Core TM i5 Processor and 4GB RAM

Thats not saying that they are not decent devices for what people use tablets for, but in order to have a real use beyond simple email, web and media consumption they need to be powerful enough to handle real use. If you can get the i5 for the price of an iPad, then that's what I am thinking of.

but then you're not even targeting the iPad audience, you're after the more advanced users and you'll never see an i5 computer of any kind for that price. right now you can get a variety of Windows 8 tablets that can do everything the iPad can and a whole lot more, for the same price. the target audience for these already have a desktop PC or full size laptop, they don't need that same power in a tablet (which would kill the most important factor in portability, battery life)

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

right now you can get a variety of Windows 8 tablets that can do everything the iPad can and a whole lot more, for the same price.

Which Windows 8 tablets can you get for $329? That's the entry level price for iPad class tablet computing

Edit: that comes across as an iPad snark - it's actually not, if there was a competitive RT tablet at that price, I wanna know about it!

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Which Windows 8 tablets can you get for $329? That's the entry level price for iPad class tablet computing

Edit: that comes across as an iPad snark - it's actually not, if there was a competitive RT tablet at that price, I wanna know about it!

in the 7-inch tablet space i don't see any manufacturer going with Windows 8, what would be the point? the only productivity software you can use on RT is the Office suite, but with a screen that small it would be a bigger pain than it's worth. and if you're comparing the iPad with only the new Windows 8 environment, then the iPad wins hands down because of app selection

Windows 8 will need a much larger market share and a far more robust app store before manufacturers start to target the casual user mini-tablet market

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

what would be the point? the only productivity software you can use on RT is the Office suite

What percentage of tablet users use office productivity software though? Having Office on the Win8 tablets targets a very narrow market segment, and the physical form factor shouldn't be dictated by the confines of the desktop side of RT.

[psyang]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

The VAIO auto-brightness is for adjusting the brightness of the panel when the ambient light conditions change. The content on the screen shouldn't change a thing where that is concerned.

I suspect there is a feature built into the display drivers similar to that of television sets with dynamic contrast ratios. You'll need to dig around in there.

Actually, content of the screen can change affect the auto-brightness. The light sensor is usually quite close to the screen, above the keyboard. If the screen moves from displaying a bright image to a dark image, or vice-versa, it can affect how much light is picked up by the sensor.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

What percentage of tablet users use office productivity software though? Having Office on the Win8 tablets targets a very narrow market segment, and the physical form factor shouldn't be dictated by the confines of the desktop side of RT.

i agree, but right now Windows 8 isn't mature enough to stand on it's own without the desktop environment. i've been trying to keep myself in the metro interface as much as possible with the tablet i'm testing and it's hard. no Google apps, no Facebook, the Microsoft equivalent apps are extremely barebones, and as a whole the Microsoft Store is a shadow of what you'll find on Google Play or Apple

Windows 8 desperately needs app developers to get on board, especially the big ones like Google, Facebook, etc. until that happens there is no market for a 7-inch Win 8 tablet

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

i agree, but right now Windows 8 isn't mature enough to stand on it's own without the desktop environment. i've been trying to keep myself in the metro interface as much as possible with the tablet i'm testing and it's hard. no Google apps, no Facebook, the Microsoft equivalent apps are extremely barebones, and as a whole the Microsoft Store is a shadow of what you'll find on Google Play or Apple

Windows 8 desperately needs app developers to get on board, especially the big ones like Google, Facebook, etc. until that happens there is no market for a 7-inch Win 8 tablet

If it's not mature enough to stand on it's own without the desktop environment, then RT is doomed unless something changes - Office is the only desktop app supported there, and it's not enough to compel people to choose RT as a tablet since very few people need Office on a tablet designed to be an adjunct to their laptop.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by psyang

Actually, content of the screen can change affect the auto-brightness. The light sensor is usually quite close to the screen, above the keyboard. If the screen moves from displaying a bright image to a dark image, or vice-versa, it can affect how much light is picked up by the sensor.

True, though that usually becomes more of an issue when you're in a dark room. If it's happening all the time, my money is still on dynamic contrast (probably based in software, given that it's a laptop). My desktop monitors have no ambient light sensors but one of them had dynamic contrast turned on. When moving a blank browser window from my Samsung professional panel (dynamic contrast GTFO) to my consumer Samsung, the contrast would adjust.

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Which Windows 8 tablets can you get for $329? That's the entry level price for iPad class tablet computing

Edit: that comes across as an iPad snark - it's actually not, if there was a competitive RT tablet at that price, I wanna know about it!

The answer to that - with an important caveat - is the Samsung ATIV Smart PC for $399... important caveat is that it's from Rogers, and that's the device cost when you sign up for a three year term. Otherwise, it'll run you a very reasonable $699.

And indeed it is reasonable when comparing apples to apples. The iPad Mini @ $329.00 (16 GB, WiFi, non-Cellular) really isn't a reasonable comparison IMO.

Samsung ATIV Smart PC:
64 GB: $399.00 on 3-yr term
64 GB: $699 outright
128 GB: Either of the two prices above plus ~$64.99 for an SD card (expandable storage is nice).

iPad Retina w/ Wi-Fi and Cellular:
16 GB: $629.00
32 GB: $729.00
64 GB: $829.00
128 GB: $929.00

iPad Mini w/ Wi-Fi and Cellular:
16 GB: $459.00
32 GB: $559.00
64 GB: $659.00

Looking at those numbers, it's incredibly hard to justify something like an iPad when you consider the capability of the devices. $659 gets you 64 gigs in the little one that comes with the last gen iPad 2's innards.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

And indeed it is reasonable when comparing apples to apples.

In a world filled with sub-$350 tablets, it's not reasonable at all.

The point I was trying to make is that RT as a product platform is skewed way too heavily towards the upper-end of the Windows 8/Phone 8 spectrum - you've got the phones on the low end, then an enormous jump from that to the first tablet.

I'm not slagging Windows RT tablets, I'm just genuinely confused as to why manufacturers have chosen this approach, with the financial barrier to entry set so high.

Edit: Or we can come straight to the point, and I'll admit I can't afford to get on this train right now Where are the cheap RT tablets dammit!

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

In a world filled with sub-$350 tablets, it's not reasonable at all.

The point I was trying to make is that RT as a product platform is skewed way too heavily towards the upper-end of the Windows 8/Phone 8 spectrum - you've got the phones on the low end, then an enormous jump from that to the first tablet.

I'm not slagging Windows RT tablets, I'm just genuinely confused as to why manufacturers have chosen this approach, with the financial barrier to entry set so high.

It's kind of like wondering why Mercedes doesn't price a loaded B-Class to complete with the base model Toyota Yaris. [shrug]

Edit: Lol. Dude, $399 from Rogers or ask Internal Systems for one. Do eeeet.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

It's kind of like wondering why Mercedes doesn't price a loaded B-Class to complete with the base model Toyota Yaris. [shrug]

Edit: Lol. Dude, $399 from Rogers or ask Internal Systems for one. Do eeeet.

That's actually where it makes a ton of sense to get a Windows tablet.

I didn't even have to ask for one, my boss came in the day the Surface was released and said I was getting one because it means I always have access.

Sure, you could always have had that access with an iPad, in a round about way, but in my experience it will always be a much harder sell than a Windows (or RT) device.

[MRCboicgy]

Spent the day with a Surface Pro - and really, it sold me on Win 8. Would love to have one for day-to-day use

[Mike F]

I picked up a Surface Pro on Monday. My impressions so far:

Pro:

1. Very smooth and responsive. No lag or slow down loading or switching between apps or scrolling within an app.
2. Non-Neutered OS. At one point I had a torrent downloading in utorrent in the background on my desktop, was reading CalPuck in new Internet Explorer while I flipped between my email and the HNIC app in the small side screen.
3. Same vein as above, but was having trouble playing an mkv (more on that later) so I downloaded the codecs I needed just as I would on any PC.
4. Both versions of IE (and I assume other internet browsers) give you the full web - I watched the Daily Show right on its normal web page thanks to built in Flash support.
5. Apps developed for Windows 8 look and work great.
6. Stylus comes with the tablet and works great, making navigating the traditional desktop a breeze.
7. X-Box Music - Summary here. Truth be told I haven't explored all of the music services out there, but the built in one seems really slick.

Cons:

• Battery Life - the down side of the full functionality is that you're not going to go a full day of regular use without a charge. 5 hours max if you're playing a lot of video or doing other processor intense things. Really feels limiting.
• It's chunky.
• It gets quite warm.
• Touch and stylus input merely "fakes" a mouse - this means that a game like Fallout (original) that I downloaded from GOG.com loaded up properly but wouldn't recognize the stylus. Haven't tried a mouse yet, which I assume will work, but really wanted to be able to load up some traditional games to play on the go without hauling a mouse along.
• As I alluded to above, the Win8 video app is limited in what video formats it recognizes, even if you update the codecs, so many formats used today will require you to go to the desktop player.
• Learning Curve - I consider myself above average in my PC skills, but I'm groping around a lot trying to figure out how to configure Win8.

May write more after I've used it a while longer.

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by MRCboicgy

Spent the day with a Surface Pro - and really, it sold me on Win 8. Would love to have one for day-to-day use

I just picked up a couple for work, and I agree. Microsoft really did a great job with this device. I added the type keyboard and a mouse, and it is a legitimate laptop replacement with the added bonus of a tablet.

I can't stress enough how awesome it is to be able to run all of my normal x86 apps on this type of device. Being able to take hand-written notes in One Note is way cooler than I would have ever imagined!

Edit: Mike F's assessment is bang on, although I loaded VLC and a codec pack before playing mkv's, which worked perfectly. I guess that is the coolest thing, imo. I don't feel confined in what I am able to do now.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by psicodude

I don't feel confined in what I am able to do now.

That's the most distinctive feature, IMO -- other than when the battery got low, I've never felt like: it's time for me to do X now, so I better put down the tablet and go to my PC.

[MRCboicgy]

You know, I thought it was clunky and bulky too, until this morning when I put my work-assigned iPad2 next to it. Somehow it feels less bulky now.

Honestly, the touch on this thing is killer accurate. I'm going to be sad when they come take it away today, maybe I should go hide somewhere in the building so I can't be found...

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Mike F

I picked up a Surface Pro on Monday. My impressions so far:

you might have been better served getting a tablet based on an Intel Atom processor. you still get full Windows 8 x86, but battery life will be near 10 hours (or 20 if you get one with a keyboard dock that has an extra battery), and the bulk/heat will be greatly reduced. the only downsides to the smaller processor come into play if you want to do more advanced work like photo/video editing or heavy gaming (aside from standard mobile games in the Windows Store)

basically if you want a complete laptop\desktop replacement, go with a Surface Pro or another i5-i7 based tablet. but if you want a complimentary device with more mobility, go for the Atom ones

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

you might have been better served getting a tablet based on an Intel Atom processor. you still get full Windows 8 x86, but battery life will be near 10 hours (or 20 if you get one with a keyboard dock that has an extra battery), and the bulk/heat will be greatly reduced. the only downsides to the smaller processor come into play if you want to do more advanced work like photo/video editing or heavy gaming (aside from standard mobile games in the Windows Store)

basically if you want a complete laptop\desktop replacement, go with a Surface Pro or another i5-i7 based tablet. but if you want a complimentary device with more mobility, go for the Atom ones

Or wait for the new Haswell Intel chips, they are supposed to have similar performance to the Ivy Bridge, but geared towards power conservation needed in mobile devices.

Due out in June IIRC.

[sa226]

Had a chance to go play a bit with a few of the Windows 8 tablets. All I can say is that i want one right now.

You have to give Microsoft credit they are slowly and quietly creeping into the modern mobile landscape. Windows Phones are impressive devices. Previously I didn't really understand what they were trying to do with Windows 8 and what seems like a very disjointed tablet selection, but it even though they have some improvements to make, if they play their cards right, I think the Windows ecosystem could be the next big thing in the mobile market.

On the tablet thing, the price points are really the only reason i didn't walk out of the store with one yesterday.

The Surface Pro to me is the perfect size and form factor, but Windows RT is a non starter (For me, I see its merits though) and the Pro is pretty damn pricey when you start to add accessories.

The Full Windows Asus Vivo tab is appealing at the price point, but lack of a regular USB and kind of choppy performance despite decent specs is kind of a turn off.

That lead me to the Samsung Ativ 500. Good performance battery life, and a decent price point as long as it is on sale. I'm just not crazy about the size and glossy back cover.

I have a feeling I will eventually end up with the Ativ 500 as a laptop/Tablet replacement.

I just wish they made and Atom version of the Surface that ran full windows and brought the price down.