I'm not so sure this would be the case if Canada had a similar history of a war of aggression against us that the US (and others) defended us from. Not to mention what would happen if the US didn't have a military presence in the face of one of the largest armies in the entire world.
The whole "anti-US" thing in S. Korea strikes me as a phase whiny teenagers go through when they try to rebel. S. Korea is probably the only country in the world that absolutely, positively relies on a US military presence to not only guarantee its continued freedom, but its very way of life. I find it hard to believe educated adults that aren't communists would want to see the Americans leave.
Rightly or wrongly there is more to anti-american feelings. There have been incidents in the history of this relationship. There were massacres and rapes during the Korean War. Similar to some incidents that American forces did to South Vietnam in the 60s. We know that American forces on foreign lands don't always behave properly.
Also the US supported a pretty ruthless dictator Park Chung Hee during the 70s in South Korea. Not counting the US, South Korea sent the most troops to Vietnam and Koreans also felt it was an unnecessary war to enter and being it was only to win favour with the US. For a long time, Korea was ruled like an African or South American dictator that was a US puppet.
It has improved now but not enough that old feelings have gone away. Koreans, even though they are being protected, still feel occupied and nobody likes that.
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Freedom of speech and opinion. It's supposedly one of the things the US has always been fighting for, yet they are always complaining when people actually use those freedoms. Funny that.
Also, it's really cute how someone would think that somehow when a Korean doesn't appreciate American war criminals and the fact that they largely got off without punishment, that somehow has something to do with North Korea.
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Freedom of speech and opinion. It's supposedly one of the things the US has always been fighting for, yet they are always complaining when people actually use those freedoms. Funny that.
Also, it's really cute how someone would think that somehow when a Korean doesn't appreciate American war criminals and the fact that they largely got off without punishment, that somehow has something to do with North Korea.
I don't get what you're trying to say, Itse. You can not like what someone is saying without being against the use of freedom of speech. If you say something stupid, and I complain about it, it certainly doesn't mean I dislike that you're exercising your right to freedom of speech anymore than if it was an American doing the complaining.
Also, I'm fairly certain you know full well that his lyrics say a little more than him not appreciating American war criminals. He apparently also doesn't appreciate American mothers, daughters-in-law, or fathers very much, either.
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If anybody is interested there is a very long and comprehensive read about the flashpoint for anti-US feelings in Korea starting in 2002. The 2002 Armored Vehicle Incident
The dynamics are way too complicated to explain here without lengthy exposure to the culture. I think Psy, who already had a reputation for controversy, capitalized on this wave. This wave was pushed forward by Iraq and beef (of all things). Beef, in fact, is still an issue today that the lefty groups use for political purposes.
The power, effectiveness, and influence of the professional anti-American/pro-north groups is truly amazing. As with any cultural wave there are people ready, willing, and able to capitalize on it. Another person used this to propel himself to a presidential victory.
Inflammatory comments like:
only increase their effectiveness.
I find it especially interesting since you could easily equate Canada's situation with Korea. Although we have not had the violent past, the US gave us two amazing advantages:
1. Only needed to spend on a token defense force
2. Massive trading partner
Without a friendly neighbor like the US, it would be hard to predict what the state of this country would be - if it was even a country at all - yet there is still strong anti-US feelings here despite the fact Canada would be vastly different for the worse without them.
I don't completely agree with the common argument that Canada is able to have a smaller military due to the United States on our border, and certainly don't believe in this regard that the comparison fits between Canada and the US, and South Korea and the US.
The US and Canada have different geopolitical goals and objectives. Their military is a result of their own needs and wants, and ours due to ours. Does Canada need military bases around the world? No, so Canada doesn't spend that type of money to have them. It's akin to saying Sweden only needs a token defense force because of the US. Different countries, different geopolitical agendas, unless you believe China is waiting in the rafters to descend upon Canada like the North would most likely do to the South without the US presence.
Edit: I almost missed the link you put in at the start of your post. It's pretty good, I'll have to give it a read when I get the chance.
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Last edited by HPLovecraft; 12-08-2012 at 10:00 AM.
The military argument is based solely from a domestic defense perspective and on a few assumptions:
1. Our one and only neighbor is friendly (and very strong)
2. If there was a problem, our neighbor and friend would help
With these in mind, we don't need a strong military fully capable of defending our borders. We could then channel those dollars that would be needed otherwise into economic development. Korea's situation is different in that they have a hostile neighbor but a strong friend. In both cases, however, Canada and Korea were (are) able to focus more on development.
The dynamics are way too complicated to explain here without lengthy exposure to the culture. I think Psy, who already had a reputation for controversy, capitalized on this wave. This wave was pushed forward by Iraq and beef (of all things). Beef, in fact, is still an issue today that the lefty groups use for political purposes.
He's free to say whatever he wants, he has to deal with the consequences now though.
I don't know why anyone would be surprised at anti American feelings in South Korea.
Hell even Canada has a very strong anti American sentiment. When the federal Liberals were in power, the CBC was virtually a US bashing propaganda machine.
Chretien took every chance he could to bash the Americans.
Even now, there is a very strong anti American sentiment in Canada. I think less so in Alberta but if you go out to BC, it's much more apparent.
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I don't know why anyone would be surprised at anti American feelings in South Korea.
Hell even Canada has a very strong anti American sentiment. When the federal Liberals were in power, the CBC was virtually a US bashing propaganda machine.
Chretien took every chance he could to bash the Americans.
Even now, there is a very strong anti American sentiment in Canada. I think less so in Alberta but if you go out to BC, it's much more apparent.
that's generally more directed though, towards the religious right and Republican conservatives. Canadians all around the country were disgusted when Bush won in 2004, but were virtually gushing when Obama won in 2008. and if Psy had directed his hate towards Bush or the actual war in Iraq, no one would care. but he advocated the killing of soldiers, the people directly responsible for protecting him and his family from the crazies up north. that's where i take offense, we should be beyond the Vietnam-era bull#### of calling soldiers baby killers
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You can not like what someone is saying without being against the use of freedom of speech.
You can.
But the thing is, there are many ways to make that argument. You can say that it's a dumb thing to say, that there is something seriously wrong with saying those kinds of things.
And then you can say that those people shouldn't be saying that about us. Which is again what's happening here.
The latter is the American way of going about these arguments. Who has the right to say what.
It's really a very typical line of thinking for the US anyway, discussing whether or not some other people in another part of the world are exercising their rights in a way that Americans can agree with. Do these people have the right to fight back, are these people within their rights to tell us to leave their country? Is it okay for those people to vote that way? Can these guys have this kind of a government? Should we do something about the people over there who say they hate us?
I guess you could just call it poor self esteem. But I don't buy that. I just call it not actually believing in the rights of other people.
Then again, the US citizens rights are on a definite downward spiral too, so I guess at least it's a somewhat fair game.
It's just too bad the US has always been a trendsetter, in good and bad.
Quote:
If you say something stupid, and I complain about it, it certainly doesn't mean I dislike that you're exercising your right to freedom of speech anymore than if it was an American doing the complaining. Also, I'm fairly certain you know full well that his lyrics say a little more than him not appreciating American war criminals. He apparently also doesn't appreciate American mothers, daughters-in-law, or fathers very much, either.
And I'm fairly sure you are saying things which you don't really believe in because you feel it supports your argument. Unless of course you were born yesterday and have never heard aggressive pop lyrics.
Also, those lyrics are very much taken out of context. Judging a piece of lyrics out of context is being deliberately stupid. (Or actually stupid, but I think that's actually a rare quality in people.)
It's not about being slow, it's just that no one in America knew or cared who this guy was until Gagnam style went viral.
They may not have known who he was but surely if it was insulting it would have come out (heeeeeey, there's this Korean idiot singing about soldier killing!)
Also, I'm sure there were American servicemen living in Korea, marrying Korean girls and immersing themselves into K-Pop and Korean culture during that time. Someone in Korea would have pointed it out and the American base there would have picked up on it and made a big deal.
Yeah, I honestly don't really care that much. A lot of celebrities have messed up opinions. Still think the song is catchy as hell though.
It is really a messed up opinion?
Unless you tortured any iraqis, or unless you ordered any airmen to torture any iraqis, he was not directly talking about you (all Americans). His criticism was quite specific.
That same 'messed up opinion' was held by millions of american citizens at the time. Literally millions protested against the war in iraq, in the streets of america, before the war even started and then even more after the tortures at Abu Ghraib. Protesting against prison abuse and calling American soldiers barbarians.
