Transgendered Miss Universe Canada finalist disqualified

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

So it has helped 75% of them? Sounds worthwhile to me.

Think how far medicine would have progressed if that was the bar! hey we saved 75% with carbolic soap, who needs anti-biotics.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Think how far medicine would have progressed if that was the bar! hey we saved 75% with carbolic soap, who needs anti-biotics.

75%>0%

So until we can effectively figure out why the other 25% are still unhappy I am not in favour of just wiping my hands on the body of the cadaver to heck with carbolic soap.

At the end of the day it is a flipping beauty competition who really cares that much about the damn thing, it isn't a slippery slope and it has nothing to do with minorities, it is just some girl getting dressed up and saying she want to cure world peace or some useless crap like that.

And if you identify yourself as being part of a racial minority and you take surgical steps in order to appear to be part of said minority then sure I wouldn't have a problem with you classifying yourself as part of that minority.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

75%>0%

So until we can effectively figure out why the other 25% are still unhappy I am not in favour of just wiping my hands on the body of the cadaver to heck with carbolic soap.

At the end of the day it is a flipping beauty competition who really cares that much about the damn thing, it isn't a slippery slope and it has nothing to do with minorities, it is just some girl getting dressed up and saying she want to cure world peace or some useless crap like that.

And if you identify yourself as being part of a racial minority and you take surgical steps in order to appear to be part of said minority then sure I wouldn't have a problem with you classifying yourself as part of that minority.

Or maybe, just maybe, they are all unhappy for some other reason and assuming we could work it out maybe it turns out they arn't women trapped in a mans body and can be treated and be happy in the body they were born with, thus negating the need for extremely difficult surgery, a lifetime of hormone therapy and, truth be told a lifetime of not really fitting in either.

Just a thought

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Or maybe, just maybe, they are all unhappy for some other reason and assuming we could work it out maybe it turns out they arn't women trapped in a mans body and can be treated and be happy in the body they were born with, thus negating the need for extremely difficult surgery, a lifetime of hormone therapy and, truth be told a lifetime of not really fitting in either.

Just a thought

Just out of curiosity, is your assertion that the medical community decided way back in early part of the 20th century, when sex change operations first started, that these people were women trapped in men's bodies and not a single lick of research has been done in the field since then?

If not, then why do you refuse to admit that, right now, this is the form of treatment that is best suited to help the most people, even if it is not 100% perfect. It is the result of about 100 years of medical research. Do you rag on cancer treatment strategies? My dad's cancer treatment killed him faster than it could have possibly saved him, and he isn't alone in that experience. Should we just stop treating some types of cancer?

I get that they have to undergo a difficult surgery, I get that they need hormones, I get that they are almost certainly going into a situation where society at large will view them as a misfit, but who gets to decide if that is better or worse than hating yourself every day?

[Psytic]

Well I think she set out to prove that she is just as attractive as any women and probably succeeded since she made it to the finals. I know if I just stumbled across those pictures on google there is no way I would of known she used to be a man. My stance on this whole debate is people can do what ever the hell they want I don't really care and its no one else's business except whoever they are romantically involved with. I am engaged so this whole phenomena shouldn't effect me anyway unless my fiancée has a secret to tell me lol.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Just out of curiosity, is your assertion that the medical community decided way back in early part of the 20th century, when sex change operations first started, that these people were women trapped in men's bodies and not a single lick of research has been done in the field since then?

If not, then why do you refuse to admit that, right now, this is the form of treatment that is best suited to help the most people, even if it is not 100% perfect. It is the result of about 100 years of medical research. Do you rag on cancer treatment strategies? My dad's cancer treatment killed him faster than it could have possibly saved him, and he isn't alone in that experience. Should we just stop treating some types of cancer?

I get that they have to undergo a difficult surgery, I get that they need hormones, I get that they are almost certainly going into a situation where society at large will view them as a misfit, but who gets to decide if that is better or worse than hating yourself every day?

Actually when the medical profession first started sexual reasignment surgery it came at a time when nothing was really know of body dysmorphia, anorexia and the like were yet to really be studied and the psychological profession was frankly really sure that the brain was the main arbitrar of identity, that the body wasn't really important, in fact there was a case of a canadian boy who's penis was severed in a badly botched circumsicion who was studied for years by (I think) the U of Minnisota) the professor published paper after paper claiming that the lad was happily growing up as a girl, except he wasn't in fact he was so drawn to being a boy that in the end in his teens his parents broke down and told him, it ended tragically with him killing himself in his late twenties, to be frank alot of the early claims for gender reassignment came out of this case and it has been utterly disproven since then.

What I worry about or wonder about is what if the whole basis for gender reassignement is false and hopelessly biased by LGBT politics, that in fact it is a treatable psychological disorder, that with the appropriate medication and therapy all of these people (or most all of them) could be allowed to be happy with who they are.
If some drug company came up with a pill that would 'cure' every person that felt like they needed a sex change there would be an outcry, it would be decried as a facist plot to get rid of a viable community, there would be protests outside the offices by pink triangled wearing activists because transgender has become a community and not a medical condition, because of this there is only one direction we are persuing, which is to cut parts of peoples bodies in order to make them feel good, if it was any thing other than transgender, leg amputations, cutting, anorexia we would rightfully call it a psychological condition and try and cure it, but in this one case we have decided it is fine.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Actually when the medical profession first started sexual reasignment surgery it came at a time when nothing was really know of body dysmorphia, anorexia and the like were yet to really be studied and the psychological profession was frankly really sure that the brain was the main arbitrar of identity, that the body wasn't really important, in fact there was a case of a canadian boy who's penis was severed in a badly botched circumsicion who was studied for years by (I think) the U of Minnisota) the professor published paper after paper claiming that the lad was happily growing up as a girl, except he wasn't in fact he was so drawn to being a boy that in the end in his teens his parents broke down and told him, it ended tragically with him killing himself in his late twenties, to be frank alot of the early claims for gender reassignment came out of this case and it has been utterly disproven since then.

What I worry about or wonder about is what if the whole basis for gender reassignement is false and hopelessly biased by LGBT politics, that in fact it is a treatable psychological disorder, that with the appropriate medication and therapy all of these people (or most all of them) could be allowed to be happy with who they are.
If some drug company came up with a pill that would 'cure' every person that felt like they needed a sex change there would be an outcry, it would be decried as a facist plot to get rid of a viable community, there would be protests outside the offices by pink triangled wearing activists because transgender has become a community and not a medical condition, because of this there is only one direction we are persuing, which is to cut parts of peoples bodies in order to make them feel good, if it was any thing other than transgender, leg amputations, cutting, anorexia we would rightfully call it a psychological condition and try and cure it, but in this one case we have decided it is fine.

Thank you for explaining your position.

I have read the papers you mention about the child who was given an unneeded sex change operation. That case proves many points, including the fact that if someone is forced to live as a gender other than what they actually are, it will negatively impact the child (to the point of suicidal thoughts). That simply leads further support to the idea that people who do feel this way need to have something done about it.

I do agree with the bolded part though, the community is firmly entrenched on many isssues (not just the correct form of treatment) and that will obviously cause political pressure in some areas. However, that doesn't change the reality that this is the best option for these people at this time.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

75%>0%

So until we can effectively figure out why the other 25% are still unhappy I am not in favour of just wiping my hands on the body of the cadaver to heck with carbolic soap.

At the end of the day it is a flipping beauty competition who really cares that much about the damn thing, it isn't a slippery slope and it has nothing to do with minorities, it is just some girl getting dressed up and saying she want to cure world peace or some useless crap like that.

And if you identify yourself as being part of a racial minority and you take surgical steps in order to appear to be part of said minority then sure I wouldn't have a problem with you classifying yourself as part of that minority.

Could you please answer the questions? Should a scientifically/surgically altered man be able to compete with women whether it be a beauty competition, sports, whatever.

Second, what sets this condition/situation apart from others?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Could you please answer the questions? Should a scientifically/surgically altered man be able to compete with women whether it be a beauty competition, sports, whatever.

Second, what sets this condition/situation apart from others?

Beauty pageant, where the people are judged by looks, talent and other things that could not possibly be impacted by the original sex of the participant? Absolutely not, as there is no advantage that can be gained, that hasn't already been allowed by the competition ie cosmetic surgery etc.

High level sports, where the different bone and and muscle structure that the male sex typically has, would give that person an advantage? You could certainly make a case that it might give that person an advantage, depending on the sport.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Beauty pageant, where the people are judged by looks, talent and other things that could not possibly be impacted by the original sex of the participant? Absolutely not, as there is no advantage that can be gained, that hasn't already been allowed by the competition ie cosmetic surgery etc.

High level sports, where the different bone and and muscle structure that the male sex typically has, would give that person an advantage? You could certainly make a case that it might give that person an advantage, depending on the sport.

I can agree with that totally but unfortunately somebody will use it as a precedent and there will be messy legal battles going on for years. Organizations will make the stipulation about gender at birth and get sued and there will be messy legal battles for years. There is my true slippery slope but I really think these things would happen.

[Weiser Wonder]

The woman should be allowed to compete. To exclude her because of a trans history is a very obvious example of discrimination.

As for the argument about the effectiveness of sexual reassignment surgery. The truth is that being transgender is difficult and is more difficult for some than others. Most trans people are very much scarred by their upbringing. A lot of trans people will always look like their assigned gender no matter the surgeries and hormone regiments they are put on. A lot of trans people have zero support. It's no wonder that all trans people don't live happy, fulfilling lives.

But the procedures do work. They do eliminate/reduce gender dysphoria. What's needed to improve the lives of trans people is not to question their legitimacy, but to accept them as who they are.

And keep in mind surgery is a very small part of the transgender experience. Not all desire surgery and only 20% have had SRS.

Here's a study on the subject:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

I can agree with that totally but unfortunately somebody will use it as a precedent and there will be messy legal battles going on for years. Organizations will make the stipulation about gender at birth and get sued and there will be messy legal battles for years. There is my true slippery slope but I really think these things would happen.

Those messy legal battles. We should avoid them at all costs, regardless of anything that indicates they might be discriminated against. That's why I was against women getting the right to vote because then the blacks and mexicans would want that right as well.

Where would it end? Dogs voting? Trees voting? Cars? We can't have this madness cluttering up our legal system!

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Those messy legal battles. We should avoid them at all costs, regardless of anything that indicates they might be discriminated against. That's why I was against women getting the right to vote because then the blacks and mexicans would want that right as well.

Where would it end? Dogs voting? Trees voting? Cars? We can't have this madness cluttering up our legal system!

If that is your position it basically renders your previous quote as meaningless.

Originally Posted by Rathji

...

High level sports, where the different bone and and muscle structure that the male sex typically has, would give that person an advantage? You could certainly make a case that it might give that person an advantage, depending on the sport.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

If that is your position it basically renders your previous quote as meaningless.

No, in my previous post, I dealt with each example individually, not lumping them up into some broad category that has no relevance.

Despite what you may claim, if this was to come up at any level or sport, the governing body of that sport would make a choice based on many criteria, including the physical demands of the sport, there own prejudices and the social climate at the time.

To claim that the Icelandic Hockey Federation could somehow be bound to allow transgender players in sex segregated leagues, due to the choice made by the Miss Universe Pageant is unbelievably ridiculous.

However if you were to claim that over time, people in general will become more open minded about things that were previously misunderstood or feared by the general population, then that things will be allowed that previously would not have been. That would be a result of increased knowledge though and not because of the choice some antiquated pageant made about the disqualification of one of it's contestants.

[SeoulFire]

Originally Posted by Rathji

No, in my previous post, I dealt with each example individually, not lumping them up into some broad category that has no relevance.

And then come back with ridiculous hyperbole that has no relevance.

Despite what you may claim, if this was to come up at any level or sport, the governing body of that sport would make a choice based on many criteria, including the physical demands of the sport, there own prejudices and the social climate at the time.

And then get their asses sued for discrimination.

To claim that the Icelandic Hockey Federation could somehow be bound to allow transgender players in sex segregated leagues, due to the choice made by the Miss Universe Pageant is unbelievably ridiculous.

As is your leap from one to the other.

However if you were to claim that over time, people in general will become more open minded about things that were previously misunderstood or feared by the general population, then that things will be allowed that previously would not have been. That would be a result of increased knowledge though and not because of the choice some antiquated pageant made about the disqualification of one of it's contestants.

Although there is no fear, it could be argued that I misunderstand - mainly because I do not agree with the proponents of the argument. The pageants are antiquated and if they ceased to be I would not even notice. Furthermore, I don't watch or follow women's sports in any way shape or form so it does not affect me in the least.

The bottom line is that it is an issue that is political in nature and the only reason it is 'news' is due to the lobbying clout of those behind it. You made a pretty bold statement in:

However, that doesn't change the reality that this is the best option for these people at this time.

On what basis are you making this claim? The one issue question that I am still waiting for anybody to address was brought up a few times from afc wimbledon (emphasis mine):

If some drug company came up with a pill that would 'cure' every person that felt like they needed a sex change there would be an outcry, it would be decried as a facist plot to get rid of a viable community, there would be protests outside the offices by pink triangled wearing activists because transgender has become a community and not a medical condition, because of this there is only one direction we are persuing, which is to cut parts of peoples bodies in order to make them feel good, if it was any thing other than transgender, leg amputations, cutting, anorexia we would rightfully call it a psychological condition and try and cure it, but in this one case we have decided it is fine.

Why is it fine in this case to bring the body to the mind when in almost all other cases it is to bring the mind to the body?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by SeoulFire

Could you please answer the questions? Should a scientifically/surgically altered man be able to compete with women whether it be a beauty competition, sports, whatever.

Second, what sets this condition/situation apart from others?

Dated May 17, 2004.

LAUSANNE, Switzerland -- Transsexuals were cleared Monday to compete in the Olympics for the first time.
Under a proposal approved by the IOC executive board, athletes who have undergone sex-change surgery will be eligible for the Olympics if their new gender has been legally recognized and they have gone through a minimum two-year period of postoperative hormone therapy.
The decision, which covers both male-to-female and female-to-male cases, goes into effect starting with the Athens Olympics in August.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=1803423

So if you are a fair hockey player, you could be ready to play in the 2018 Winter Olympics.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

The woman should be allowed to compete. To exclude her because of a trans history is a very obvious example of discrimination.

As for the argument about the effectiveness of sexual reassignment surgery. The truth is that being transgender is difficult and is more difficult for some than others. Most trans people are very much scarred by their upbringing. A lot of trans people will always look like their assigned gender no matter the surgeries and hormone regiments they are put on. A lot of trans people have zero support. It's no wonder that all trans people don't live happy, fulfilling lives.

But the procedures do work. They do eliminate/reduce gender dysphoria. What's needed to improve the lives of trans people is not to question their legitimacy, but to accept them as who they are.

And keep in mind surgery is a very small part of the transgender experience. Not all desire surgery and only 20% have had SRS.

Here's a study on the subject:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

The procedures though patently don't work in the overall sense, yes if we give a person the body they think they should have they no longer are able to fixate on that as a problem but it appears clear that in a large number of transexuals that isn't really the problem or the cure.

I would also argue that it is almost impossible to accurately survey how happy transexuals are after their gender modification and your link states that follow up studies are thin to non existant anyway. These patients have gone through hell and back to get the treatment, my guess would be a large number of them, having been so adament, even in their own mind, that this is what will fix all their issues, are going to be loathe to sit down in a follow up interview and say they were wrong.

If we allowed anorexics the medical support in order to safely starve themselves down to belsen like levels they would also no longer think they were too fat but it doesn't make that an appropriate treatment any more than giving an addict an easy supply of drugs or alcohol is a 'treatment' for addiction.

But again what really worries me about this is that the medical community does not approach gender dysmorphia as a psychological condition that needs to be cured, they approach the idea that a man could be a woman trapped inside a mans body as fact and without question, unlike any other dysmorphic thought process.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If we allowed anorexics the medical support in order to safely starve themselves down to belsen like levels they would also no longer think they were too fat but it doesn't make that an appropriate treatment any more than giving an addict an easy supply of drugs or alcohol is a 'treatment' for addiction.

Maybe not treatment, but it can be harm reduction.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by SebC

Maybe not treatment, but it can be harm reduction.

Thats fine, its the endless calls to accept everything that I think is unhealthy, we have anorexics demanding their choice be validated, in Vancouver we have the Vancouver area drug users association who believe drug use is a legitimate life style choice.

I think I would be happy if we told people, 'you are not trapped in the wrong body, you have a psychological condition called body dysmorphia that causes you to feel this way, if you insist we will persue this course but be aware this is not the answer to your issues'

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The procedures though patently don't work in the overall sense, yes if we give a person the body they think they should have they no longer are able to fixate on that as a problem but it appears clear that in a large number of transexuals that isn't really the problem or the cure.

I would also argue that it is almost impossible to accurately survey how happy transexuals are after their gender modification and your link states that follow up studies are thin to non existant anyway. These patients have gone through hell and back to get the treatment, my guess would be a large number of them, having been so adament, even in their own mind, that this is what will fix all their issues, are going to be loathe to sit down in a follow up interview and say they were wrong.

If we allowed anorexics the medical support in order to safely starve themselves down to belsen like levels they would also no longer think they were too fat but it doesn't make that an appropriate treatment any more than giving an addict an easy supply of drugs or alcohol is a 'treatment' for addiction.

But again what really worries me about this is that the medical community does not approach gender dysmorphia as a psychological condition that needs to be cured, they approach the idea that a man could be a woman trapped inside a mans body as fact and without question, unlike any other dysmorphic thought process.

Your arrogance that you'd assume to know about the trans condition is telling. You probably should try to speculate on others personal experiences.

Your attachment to the body aspect of trans people is telling. Trans people literally experience life as the opposite sex of their bodies. They have looked at trans brains and they more generally reflect the brains of the gender they say they are as opposed to their genitalia. What's most important for trans people is to get treated as the gender they are, and be able to interact with people as the gender they are. Hormone treatment are as much needed for the mental changes as the physical changes. They've been shown to reduce anxiety and depression in trans people.

Most trans live life actively opposed to their trans condition. Nobody wants to be trans. Most do everything in their power to change it. It's something you cannot control. Like anything else intrinsic to humans, it comes up no matter what the trans person does. Their gender is an instrinc part of their identity.

I like the idea that you can't ask trans people how they feel about gender dysphoria treatments because they'd be biased. Your unwillingness to let trans people explain themselves is telling in how you view them.

To compare it to body dysmorphia is stupid, stupid, stupid. Stop doing it. I will repeat that gender dysphoria is only partly about having the wrong body, there are many other aspects that also deeply negatively affect trans people.

Please just start listening to trans people. You do not know better than they do.