Will Israel launch unilateral air strikes to destroy Iran's nuclear facilities?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by freedogger

A buddy of mine who was in the first gulf war said it went through both the Iraqi and Chinese made tanks like nothing. He said inches of metal looked like they had had holes melted right through them.

Tungsten is just as effective except that you don't get the free offshore nuclear waste storage options that are available with the depleted uranium plan.

It was very strange, the last time I was in the States I ran into a former armor cav officer and we actually had a decent talk about tank warfare.

Its not the bullets that kill tanks, its the paint and fixtures inside of the tank that do the killing when it comes to kinetic weapons theory.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think you mean "accidents"

Maybe your just joking, but the m.o. so far seems to be:


1. use local to kill scientist with car bomb.

2. Issue press releases saying "good riddance".


It's also possible Israel isn't behind these assassinations (although they probably are). The Saudis have just as much to worry about with Iran.

[killer_carlson]

I think Israel has the good riddance press conference each time one of these guys gets taken out, but I also think that there are a lot of other nations helping some of these guys along. The Israelis have no problem publically showing pleasure with the passing.

I suspect that many other middle east countries are involved, plus some european, asian, and north american countries as well.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by freedogger

Tungsten is just as effective except that you don't get the free offshore nuclear waste storage options that are available with the depleted uranium plan.

Not at all, unless you're only counting on encountering T-54s from the early Cold War era. Composite armour is a different story.

http://doc.danfahey.com/DU-W-1980.pdf

(U) When the inherent penetration performance of the two materials
are compared, the DU is not only a superior armor penetrator, but in
fact is required in order to penetrate modern targets with modern ammurii-
tion.

There are also a number of studies out there describing the carcinogenic properties of tungsten. It's is certainly no harmless alternative.

[Mike Vernon]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

There are also a number of studies out there describing the carcinogenic properties of tungsten. It's is certainly no harmless alternative.

In powder form

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Mike Vernon

In powder form

What do you think happens when tungsten (or DU) darts make impact with armour?

[Brotato]

I am drunk and can't tell if FreeDogger and Montcon goalie picture guy are trolling or believe this stuff? Can anyone confirm if they do or not, so I can pray for them tonight?

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by Brotato

I am drunk and can't tell if FreeDogger and Montcon goalie picture guy are trolling or believe this stuff? Can anyone confirm if they do or not, so I can pray for them tonight?

If I was serious about trolling, I'd be inlining pictures of deformed depleted uranium children.

[driveway]

Returning to the original topic, as a staunchly left-wing, idealist pinko hippie I can say without hesitation that I would be 100% fine with any nation or group of nations pouding Iranian nuclear sites into glass and dust.

[freedogger]

Originally Posted by driveway

Returning to the original topic, as a staunchly left-wing, idealist pinko hippie I can say without hesitation that I would be 100% fine with any nation or group of nations pouding Iranian nuclear sites into glass and dust.

Even if it starts world war three?

“Iran is our neighbor,” Russia's outgoing ambassador to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, told reporters in Brussels. “And if Iran is involved in any military action, it’s a direct threat to our security.”

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by freedogger

Tungsten is just as effective except that you don't get the free offshore nuclear waste storage options that are available with the depleted uranium plan.

Most of the world's Tungsten is produced in China, which complicates things a little further.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by freedogger

Even if it starts world war three?

“Iran is our neighbor,” Russia's outgoing ambassador to NATO, Dmitry Rogozin, told reporters in Brussels. “And if Iran is involved in any military action, it’s a direct threat to our security.”

Afghanistan

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Entering James Clapper's comments in, for the record:

From the Worldwide Threat Assessment (pdf link):

We assess Iran is keeping open the option to develop nuclear weapons, in part by developing various nuclear capabilities that better position it to produce such weapons, should it choose to do so. We do not know, however, if Iran will eventually decide to build nuclear weapons....

We judge Iran's nuclear decision making is guided by a cost-benefit approach, which offers the international community opportunities to influence Tehran. Iranian leaders undoubtedly consider Iran's security, prestige, and influence, as well as the international political and security environment, when making decisions about its nuclear program.

From a recent Senate hearing:

Senator Snowe: I gather we agree with the fact that Iran has not made the decision to weaponize at this point. Director Clapper, do you agree on that?

General Clapper: Yes, but they are certainly moving on that path, but we don't believe they've actually made the decision to go ahead with a nuclear weapon.

With thanks to James Fallows.

[Gunkle]

Like many forum discussions....arguments multiply into 20 other spin off topics. I will do my best to further confuse everyone, and address 40 different points.

First off. I have been cited as being a little one-sided. To that I say - I am glad you noticed We don't so much live in a world of black vs. white, good v. evil - but we certainly live in a world where one lives, and the other dies. You don't have to like the rules - you just have to accept them.

Iran (the leadership, not the people) want you dead. I don't really feel that many of our grievances with middle easterners are religious (as it may appear) as much as it is cultural (I can reference this if you like).

A classic way of unifying a people is by pitting yourself against another (ie. Hitler and the Jews, Chavez and the USA). Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't - it is smoke and mirrors. Every action is embellished to the extreme.

Iran might have painted themselves into a corner. They keep pulling on the lion's tail - and eventually they will get bit.

Now.....as far as UAVs in Iran - so what?!?!? Is this an act of war? Not likely. Each country has spies and informants in each others' country - in fact, every country does. China gets busted once a month for their spy service in Mexico, the UK, the US, etc. That's just how the game is played. These UAVs are just fancy spies

Now...on to depleted uranium....are you guys being serious? You are saying that depleted munitions are on par, or at the very least - you can make an argument that we're using nuclear technology on the battlefield. Ha! If that's the case - what about wristwatchs that glow in the dark - that's a nuclear isotope. Is Timex creating a global genocide?
DM are extremely dense - and are used as anti armor rounds. Typically, they are used in 'Gatling guns' out of 'anti tank' aircraft like the US' A10.

Please don't say that these are any sort of nuclear devices - that just sounds silly.

Further - watchout for microwaves!!!

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Gunkle

Now...on to depleted uranium....are you guys being serious? You are saying that depleted munitions are on par, or at the very least - you can make an argument that we're using nuclear technology on the battlefield. Ha! If that's the case - what about wristwatchs that glow in the dark - that's a nuclear isotope. Is Timex creating a global genocide?

I don't have expertise in the uranium issue as it is outside of my training. But your comment about phosphorescence is extremely ill-informed.

[CaptainCrunch]

Don't most watches still use Tritium for their glow in the dark features, it is a Radioactive Isotope, so on that side of what he's saying he's correct, at that point we're into a discussion around quatities.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Don't most watches still use Tritium for their glow in the dark features, it is a Radioactive Isotope, so on that side of what he's saying he's correct, at that point we're into a discussion around quatities.

Fortunately for us, no. You need a permit to get tritium. We have one in the lab.

Phosphorescence is light.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Fortunately for us, no. You need a permit to get tritium. We have one in the lab.

Phosphorescence is light.

Huh

I'm confused, are you saying that watches don't use Tritium

Not to argue, but I'm confused by what your saying. However I'm no Nuclear Rocket scientist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium_illumination

Because tritium in particular is an integral part of certain thermonuclear devices (though in quantities several thousand[citation needed] times larger than that in a keychain), consumer and safety devices containing tritium for use in the United States are subject to certain possession, resale, disposal, and use restrictions. Devices such as self-luminous exit signs, gauges, wrist watches, etc., which contain small amounts of tritium are under the jurisdiction of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and are subject to possession, distribution, import and export regulations found in 10 CFR Parts, 30, 32 and 110. They are also subject to regulations for possession, use and disposal in certain states. They are readily sold and used in the US and are widely available in the UK and are regulated in England and Wales by environmental health departments of local councils. Tritium lighting is legal in most of Asia and Australia.

Just on google search alone I found over 50 watches with Tritium painted faces.

Again, I'm not saying that this poses a deformed baby issue because the quantitiies are small and Tritium in small quantities have been deemed as safe.

But the original argument though a little misguided does stand from a certain point of view.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Huh

I'm confused, are you saying that watches don't use Tritium

You're right, and I'm wrong... watches appear to have tritium. I thought it was long outlawed / removed.

But what tritium does and what phosphorescence is are completely different things. They shouldn't be confused. The phosphorescence from watches is not because tritium is emitting light, it's because there is an actual phosphor in the paint.

I'm happy to be corrected on tritium use in watches and appreciate it. Nonetheless, the original point stands: phosphorescence does not equal nuclear isotope.


===

edit: To be honest, I'd always assumed the "tritium" in these watches was some type of brand name gimmick. I didn't think they would actually use a rare hydrogen isotope. That'll learn me.

[CaptainCrunch]

Thanks PHD