I think here is where you hit the nail on the head. And again I reiterate that if you can do something, it doesn't mean you should. Unfortunately we live in a society where that mantra is thrown under the bus all too often.
As always, a reasonable and just assessment from one of my favourite posters on this message board.
I think the problem comes from the way our brains are created though. The Hayflick Limit states we can only willingly care about 120 or so things meaningfully at a time. Past that, they're two dimensional and often meaningless. For these groups that can exploit, they don't see the populace as people anymore. They see them as a crowd of flesh with money on them. Same goes the other way. Commonplace thinking is to look at a CEOs and see fat blobs of flesh with lots of money, less so than people with families to take care of and huge amount of responsibility thrown on their shoulders while they try to balance work and family life.
Because of this, asking them to be nice and to avoid exploitation is hard and very unreliable. Asking them to not for the reason of "just because" becomes dangerous and with results probably less than satisfactory because they likely don't see us as full humans, commonly like the way we don't to them, whether we'd like to or not.
I understand in the US the frustration - the regulation of the financial system is a shambles and both industry and government are to blame.
But, in Canada? We're not perfect, but we have financial structures that are the envy of the entire world. Democracy seems relatively healthy, governance is generally sound. So given this fact, are the occupy movements in Canada railing against american systems, or do they actually believe that our own systems are broken?
If you read through all of my posts, the consistent thing I've said is the financial system needs more comprehensive regulation, not less, particularly in the area of derivative trading.
But, if you want it done, pick the right target for protest. Hanging out on Wall St. is rather pointless and gives the politicians a free ride.
Cowperson
Agreed.....comprehensive financial regulation would have been great at the time but impossible with a Republican President, Senate and Congress. The Democrats got the House and Senate back in 2006 but had less than 2 years to tackle what in hindsight was a huge issue. The Dodd-Frank Bill is a good start after the mess but it'll be tough getting much more with a split Democrat-led Senate and Republican-led Congress. You also have someone like Bank of Canada's Carney mention more regulation and they get grilled by someone like JP Morgan's Dimion.
The main reason they're in NYC is because of Wall Street's symbolism with greed during this mess. There are various causes beyond Wall Street for the financial mess but being at the NYSE is where they need to be. I am surprised they weren't there in 2008/2009. I guess the longer it's been going on, the more it's starting to hurt and affect Main Street along with advances in social media. Why go after politicans that make a few hundred grand per year when you can go after bankers that make that much more. On top of that don't forget the bailout/TARP. The best way to get politicans to act and introduce more regulation is for sustained pressure on Wall Street along with Washington.
I was at the NYSE for part of a day recently as I work in the industry and I got the impression of a committed group with large numbers. My industry needs to lose the sense of entitlement and start taking these groups more seriously.
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Also, does anyone find it slightly ironic that those people who are so staunchly opposed to “corporate greed” are likely the same ones who are mourning the passing of the former CEO of one of the most profitable businesses of the last decade?
Holy generalization!
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True, but Apple wasn't lending subprime mortgages.
You're completely correct. The companies that were lending subprime mortgages were doing so under the guidelines established by the government and regulatory agencies at the time. The fact that so many people were stupid enough to take on more debt than they could handle is their own fault. Don't blame the dealer, blame the addict. Supply and demand right?
I do have an honest question, what's everyone's opinion of the US Government's 2008 bailouts?
My opinion: At the taxpayers' expense, regular citizens were footed the bill to bail out institutions that raped those very same citizens with gross banking misconduct from the start. As experts, these institutions should have been aware of the bubble that they themselves were inflating. Instead, the warnings were cast aside, while banks made more and more money. These 'experts' were clearly not looking out for anybody's interests except their own. You have to have faith in these experts because they're skilled in this line of work, and just when Americans needed them the most, they turned their backs on them and laughed all the way to the bank. Hence where we are today.
Was it within their right to manipulate the system like that? Sure, everything was legal because most of them were lobbying the government for non-reforms to the system preventing illegal activity or they were part of an 'old boys club' that just scratched each others backs (Larry Summers, Ben Bernake, etc.). Was it also the fault of the consumer for taking these loans unknowingly? Absolutely. But as a consumer, they must put their faith in the banking system and likely had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. There was a flawed governance system that needed reform, and I'm willing to bet most people had no idea about this whatsoever.
On a semi-related note, Ford Motor Company decided not to take a bailout that year, instead going alone and relying on their own internal financial resources and ingenuity to carry them through... and their product has improved so much since then. Great example of smart management and strategic decisions.
Last edited by Muta; 10-07-2011 at 02:45 PM.
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I do have an honest question, what's everyone's opinion of the US Government's 2008 bailouts?
My knowledge on the subject is very limited, but I can see how the multi billion dollar bailout of large corporations by taxpayers can be looked at with negative optics. Subsequent acts by these corporations, such as awarding bonuses despite the bailouts of these corporations (see the link below), and having CEO's fly private jets to Washington to request bailout money, really add to the appearance of greed and lack of common sense.
Entertaining interview by the Lang & O'Leary show. I'm not sure what Chris Hedges expected, going on the show to be interviewed by Kevin. If you know even an inkling about Kevin and how he acts, Chris should have known it was coming. That being said, I'm not sure he 'schooled' Kevin, but he did make some good points.
I know you guys are focusing on the main topic and the reasoning behind the protests, but I just wanted to pop on and provide some first hand experience.
My wife and I went to check out #occupyDC/#occupyKst last night, which is situated in MacPherson Square on K Street (which is right in the heart of the lobbyist row in Washington). We hung around for about 2 hours just observing what was going on and listening to the nightly general assembly.
From an outside perspective there was a mixture of people. You had a handful of anarchists and a handful of what I would call professional protestors. You also had a few homeless people hanging around for a bit of free food. But on the most part of the 200 or so people there working within the group to establish a direction, it was mainly made up of disenfranchised youth. When I say youth, i mean between the 24-30 year old range. There was a big swatch of very professional minded people within the crowd working with the organizers to establish a direction (including an amazing IT brigade live streaming the entire process).
From my perspective, the #occupyDC group (which is separate from the #occupyFreedomplaza group which seams to be a more aggressive movement who subsequently stormed the Air & Space museum this weekend) seams to be a more subdued group. There are some leadership holes in the structure, but for the most part they are trying to establish a collective direction. Which is a pretty difficult task given the situation and the diversity of the stakeholders.
And while the most glaring observation is that the protests don't necessarily have a concrete objective or even an end goal, it easy to see why people are there and becoming involved.
Coming from Calgary and being a professional within the 25-30 year old range, I never felt like I was behind the eightball in career options. I honestly never felt like I was ever going to be pinned behind crushing health insurance debt, student loans or a lack of job opportunities - in Calgary at least those issues were never something that crossed my mind.
But in DC, when I chat with my wife's cohorts in her program, there is an underlying sense that this generation of Americans will never get an opportunity to really get a head in the world. Either crippled by the costs of health insurance, crushing student debt (3-4 times what the average Canadian takes on), stuck in the cycle of the unpaid intern culture, running two jobs (a professional job during the day and service job at night), or not being able to purchase property. There seams to be a disconnect with the success of previous generations.
From the time I spent watching and observing the #occupyDC group last night, it's pretty clear that their biggest challenge is changing the public opinion of their movement from a "disorganized bunch of hippies" to a focused generational movement against what seams like a hopeless system. But until these groups are able to specifically channel that idea, they're going to continue to face an uphill PR battle.
And you are right. I spoke about that on this very first page. What is needed is a clear concise message. There are many good points, however it's disorganized like mozilla open source.
But I got to the point where that was secondary. And especially in Canada, the focus is more on the highlighting of issues anyway. Really, we're not trying to upset or stop anything. Just trying to highlight issues.
Shoot, in France they demonstrate and shut things down when the government wants to remove a public holiday. It would be nice to see one tenth of that passion here. To see the public act like WE ELECT THEM, not we're stuck with them.
To further prove my point of the issues with the #occupyDC group(s), it looks like the other group (the more radical Freedom Plaza) is currently making a more aggressive protest at the senate this afternoon.
Again, it really just shows some of the holes in the movement and the challenges the group is destined to face without a clear message that can get everyday families to rally behind the movement.
How did I miss this! A friend of mine told me about this over lunch and I came home, did a search and found this video on youtube and thought I'd post it. Is it a bit of fear mongering? Perhaps, but it's happening nonetheless and it is about time! A bit of Iceland rubbing off?
How did I miss this! A friend of mine told me about this over lunch and I came home, did a search and found this video on youtube and thought I'd post it. Is it a bit of fear mongering? Perhaps, but it's happening nonetheless and it is about time! A bit of Iceland rubbing off?
I watched about 2 minutes of that garbage. Sorry, as soon as you start comparing yourselves to those involved in the Arab uprisings you're a tool in my books.
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I watched about 2 minutes of that garbage. Sorry, as soon as you start comparing yourselves to those involved in the Arab uprisings you're a tool in my books.
I think the message he was trying to say was that there was no free assembly in the USA and the USA went to war using these excuses. To make a free society... The speeches used were quite smart. The editing wasn't. It was a shock video, but it could have been more.
I think the message he was trying to say was that there was no free assembly in the USA and the USA went to war using these excuses. To make a free society... The speeches used were quite smart. The editing wasn't. It was a shock video, but it could have been more.
Yeah, I got that part but it was garbage too. No free assembly? There's been 3 weeks of squatting that has been allowed despite the fact that it could be easily quashed under local laws. The lack of free speech claim was great too, completely unfounded.
Apparently these people think they should be free to do whatever they want. Sorry, you don't get more rights than I do and I sure as hell would have been arrested had I repeatedly refused police orders. The NYPD has been a bit overboard in a couple of instances, the use of pepper spray for instance, but overall the protesters have been largely allowed to do as they please. The attempt to equate themselves to the oppression faced in the Middle East is disgusting.
I know you guys are focusing on the main topic and the reasoning behind the protests, but I just wanted to pop on and provide some first hand experience.
My wife and I went to check out #occupyDC/#occupyKst last night, which is situated in MacPherson Square on K Street (which is right in the heart of the lobbyist row in Washington). We hung around for about 2 hours just observing what was going on and listening to the nightly general assembly.
From an outside perspective there was a mixture of people. You had a handful of anarchists and a handful of what I would call professional protestors. You also had a few homeless people hanging around for a bit of free food. But on the most part of the 200 or so people there working within the group to establish a direction, it was mainly made up of disenfranchised youth. When I say youth, i mean between the 24-30 year old range. There was a big swatch of very professional minded people within the crowd working with the organizers to establish a direction (including an amazing IT brigade live streaming the entire process).
From my perspective, the #occupyDC group (which is separate from the #occupyFreedomplaza group which seams to be a more aggressive movement who subsequently stormed the Air & Space museum this weekend) seams to be a more subdued group. There are some leadership holes in the structure, but for the most part they are trying to establish a collective direction. Which is a pretty difficult task given the situation and the diversity of the stakeholders.
And while the most glaring observation is that the protests don't necessarily have a concrete objective or even an end goal, it easy to see why people are there and becoming involved.
Coming from Calgary and being a professional within the 25-30 year old range, I never felt like I was behind the eightball in career options. I honestly never felt like I was ever going to be pinned behind crushing health insurance debt, student loans or a lack of job opportunities - in Calgary at least those issues were never something that crossed my mind.
But in DC, when I chat with my wife's cohorts in her program, there is an underlying sense that this generation of Americans will never get an opportunity to really get a head in the world. Either crippled by the costs of health insurance, crushing student debt (3-4 times what the average Canadian takes on), stuck in the cycle of the unpaid intern culture, running two jobs (a professional job during the day and service job at night), or not being able to purchase property. There seams to be a disconnect with the success of previous generations.
From the time I spent watching and observing the #occupyDC group last night, it's pretty clear that their biggest challenge is changing the public opinion of their movement from a "disorganized bunch of hippies" to a focused generational movement against what seams like a hopeless system. But until these groups are able to specifically channel that idea, they're going to continue to face an uphill PR battle.
we are definitely lucky to live in Canada, where there is still a general belief in social safety net, universal health care and making education (reasonably) affordable.
the anecdotal evidence from the DC visit is interesting, tho not unexpected. For the under 25s, it may be a time where upward mobility ends...until the demographic shift of course, but then we won't have any CPP to look forward to anyways.
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No free assembly? There's been 3 weeks of squatting( TBQH - lol million man march anyone... anyone? They want the Bankers in Jail. Is they won't leave till it happens. Do you think the US Bankers who have frauded the people don't belong in jail?)
that has been allowed despite the fact that it could be easily quashed under local laws (TBQH - who owns the police in a DEMOCRACY? The state or the people?)
Apparently these people think they should be free to do whatever they want. Sorry, you don't get more rights than I do and I sure as hell would have been arrested had I repeatedly refused police orders. (TBQH - again, who owns the police in a DEMOCRACY? The state or the people? Do you know and understand they have not broken law any laws and are exercising their rights?)
The NYPD has been a bit overboard in a couple of instances, the use of pepper spray for instance, but overall the protesters have been largely allowed to do as they please. The attempt to equate themselves to the oppression faced in the Middle East is disgusting.
Yes I understand that point but you can not be detained under free speach and many people have. Every US shot proved that. It was over the top, but all of that was actual footage.
I am proud of those people who are protesting and being peaceful about it. Now when are the criminals going down?
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Yes I understand that point but you can not be detained under free speach and many people have. Every US shot proved that. It was over the top, but all of that was actual footage.
I am proud of those people who are protesting and being peaceful about it. Now when are the criminals going down?
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. People weren't detained "under freedom of speach (sic)", they were detained due to failure to comply with police orders and other obstruction like offenses. The NYPD has largely allowed this protest to go on as it pleases, the fact that people are arrested when they try to impede traffic and otherwise disrupt the rest of the city is fine with me. I live here too, they don't get to mess with my day just to make a point. The funny part is I'm one of the first people to come down on the police, particularly the overzealous NYPD, in most cases but they simply haven't been out of line with the notable exception of the use of pepper spray.
As for your other points, million man march? What are you talking about? You reference that in response to calling what these protesters are doing squatting? The million man march was a day of permitted gathering on the national mall, not a month of camping out. Where's the comparison, anyone... anyone? These protesters are on pseudo private property (it's a public square but it's owned by a private developer that is able to set down rules for use, most of which are being ignored) and have set up what is essentially a village. How is that not squatting?
To your point on incarcerating bankers, sure I'd like to see them in jail, if there's an actual legal case to put them there. So far none has been made, and I don't expect one will, or even could, be made. There was certainly unethical behavior, and I'd like to see more zealous prosecution, but there's enough to hide behind to prevent a criminal conviction in most cases. Making extreme unethical behavior a criminal offense in certain instances is something I would support.
I do have an honest question, what's everyone's opinion of the US Government's 2008 bailouts?
Too broad a question. I posted in one of the other occupy threads that in the case of the Chrysler and GM bailouts, both companies repaid the US and Canadian governments six years early, at a profit to taxpayers, and resulted in guaranteed production (and therefore jobs) in Canada. In that respect, a good call.
I have limited knowledge of how the bank bailouts turned out, though I suspect your impressions are close to accurate.
Ultimately, a bailout is a huge risk to the government, and therefore the taxpayer. As with a regular bank and a regular citizen, if the lendee defaults, the lender gets screwed. It is probably not a risk I want our government taking very often.
