Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

It would seem weird to me that the 'final say' of something that is extraordinary to normal human society - like a pandemic, or perhaps, something worse like an existential crisis - would be in the hands of the not-most qualified voices in the room. And civil liberties were barely touched during COVID, even though it broke poor Jason Kenney's numpty little heart to follow recommended health orders.

Remember, we exist in a social contract to live in a functioning society, even during the hard times when we have to pull through together as a community. And privilege is confusing inconvenience for tyranny.

I mean that is really... false. Were you forced to close your business because the government deemed it non essential? I'm guessing not. Were you not allowed to attend your own mothers funeral because your family exceeded 10 people? Likely no. Could you not go see your daughter who lives in Montana for a 1 1/2 years because the border was closed? I mean the list goes on and on, and going beyond Alberta. Being told you could not have guests to your home, police raiding homes in Montreal because their Christmas gathering was "too many people". What else would you have willingly given up?

[Ozy_Flame]

For me, winning popularity contests is not the threshold I want in my community leaders because for the precise reason why they're there - no qualifications needed.

When I need engineering services, I expect the season engineer to design my schematics, not the Board Chair of his company who was voted in who may not have the competencies to do technical design work.

Also, pretending like elected officials have some sort of 'grand strategy' during times of crisis is BS. They look to their experts - economists, scientists, physicians, and policy analysts. Or, at least they are supposed to. We saw the UCP very publicly kick and scream their way to some arrangement of health orders, even though they were like three-year olds having meltdowns because they had to follow rules (even then they weren't good at it).

I think treating normal, partisan people like Patton, MacArthur or Marshall is a fool's errand. Being the most popular does not make one a good strategist, leader, or decision maker. Countless bad decisions have been made at the municipal, provincial and federal levels in this country.

When push comes to shove, it is the SME's underneath that guide the correct decisions. And to be frank, I'm waiting for AI to step in as well. LLM and big data are going to critical to future decision-making, especially in a world of wild economics and climate change.

[PepsiFree]

Imagine thinking public health officials that are legally responsible for making decisions in a public health emergency should be the ones making decisions in a public health emergency.

That’s crazy talk.

I hope that, if I ever have a heart attack, they can get an economist and an HR representative in there to instruct the doctors on what treatment urgency level is most economically viable and for the hospital and ensure that my treatment doesn’t impact anyone’s lunch break. I don’t want to get saved if it’s going to inconvenience anyone TOO much.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure thing, this has nothing to do with emotion, it is FACT.


https://globalnews.ca/news/8348574/p...d-19-failures/

You can ignore reality and forget what happened all you want, but the reality is, things were dire in Alberta(and you can go compare to other Canadian jurisdiction at the time to confirm this) and it was precisely because of Kenney's decisions and actions.

You could also argue pretty robustly that some of our problems in the medical system now, like staffing issues, are because of these decisions where HCW had had enough, and left their careers because politicians didn't give a #### about how they were being treated.

Except these were not and are not Alberta exclusive problems, blaming the UCP is just your go to. Manitoba had some of the most restrictive policies during the pandemic and they canceled 1000's and 1000's of surgeries, during the pandemic. All provinces, had the same issues.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...-ndp-1.6836765

And the current issue regarding staff shortages in health care are coast to coast problem, effecting all provinces, no matter what provincial government is in charge.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

I mean that is really... false. Were you forced to close your business because the government deemed it non essential? I'm guessing not. Were you not allowed to attend your own mothers funeral because your family exceeded 10 people? Likely no. Could you not go see your daughter who lives in Montana for a 1 1/2 years because the border was closed? I mean the list goes on and on, and going beyond Alberta. Being told you could not have guests to your home, police raiding homes in Montreal because their Christmas gathering was "too many people". What else would you have willingly given up?

Many businesses closed temporarily and/or had to adjust their business model for a time, but most survived. There were also business supports available (e.g. CEBA) and even individuals got it too (CERB). We were lucky to live in a country that recognized assistance was going to be needed.

Most people also made sacrifices in visiting loved ones, Montana or elsewhere. Too bad so sad you couldn't cross a border during a pandemic. People get denied entry to the US border (and Canada's) all the time for various reasons. This really wasn't a scenario for most Canadians, despite your arm-waving.

And not having guests in your home for Christmas during a raging pandemic? Really? This is the hill you die on?

Nothing you said negates my earlier statement - privilege is confusing inconvenience with tyranny.

The next pandemic might not be as forgiving.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Many businesses closed temporarily and/or had to adjust their business model for a time, but most survived. There were also business supports available (e.g. CEBA) and even individuals got it too (CERB). We were lucky to live in a country that recognized assistance was going to be needed.

Most people also made sacrifices in visiting loved ones, Montana or elsewhere. Too bad so sad you couldn't cross a border during a pandemic. People get denied entry to the US border (and Canada's) all the time for various reasons. This really wasn't a scenario for most Canadians, despite your arm-waving.

And not having guests in your home for Christmas during a raging pandemic? Really? This is the hill you die on?

Nothing you said negates my earlier statement - privilege is confusing inconvenience with tyranny.

The next pandemic might not be as forgiving.

Though real numbers are hard to find, the estimation was about 200,000 small business closures in Canada, saying "most survived" is the same as saying "a lot closed."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cfib-survey-1.5882059

And you cannot spout such a relative term such as "our civil liberties were barley touched" and then just defend the and downplay a few examples of SOME of the measures that were put in place. And hey lets not forget those that were let go for not getting vaccinated. Were they that drastic? To some yes and to others (such as yourself) no. Spending time with family and friends is extremely important to some people and to you, well it obviously doesn't matter.

And moving beyond Covid, the CMOH should be lobbying for the banning of alcohol, tobacco, fast food, desserts, soda, margarine, junk food, processed foods and on and on and on. Should the CMOH have final say on what can and cannot be sold in our society?

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Except these were not and are not Alberta exclusive problems, blaming the UCP is just your go to. Manitoba had some of the most restrictive policies during the pandemic and they canceled 1000's and 1000's of surgeries, during the pandemic. All provinces, had the same issues.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...-ndp-1.6836765

And the current issue regarding staff shortages in health care are coast to coast problem, effecting all provinces, no matter what provincial government is in charge.

Is Alberta having the most vacancies in it's residency program in decades a coast to coast problem too? Or is it likely that there's more to it?


The number has been steadily rising from 11 vacancies under the NDP to 42 under the UCP. The doctor shortage & residency vacancies aren't entirely on the UCP, it's been a growing problem for a long time but they are making it much worse than it needs to be without offering any real solutions.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Except these were not and are not Alberta exclusive problems, blaming the UCP is just your go to. Manitoba had some of the most restrictive policies during the pandemic and they canceled 1000's and 1000's of surgeries, during the pandemic. All provinces, had the same issues.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...-ndp-1.6836765

And the current issue regarding staff shortages in health care are coast to coast problem, effecting all provinces, no matter what provincial government is in charge.

I really really hate that you are making me revisit this, but you are ignoring facts. The delta wave hit Alberta far worse than Manitoba.



https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-1...statistics.htm


See that big peak in October? That is a direct result of Kenney's best summer ever.






https://www.gov.mb.ca/health/publich...-19/index.html


Do you see a huge peak in October in Manitoba? No, you don't, because it didn't happen, and Manitoba didn't call the military for help. We basically had a massive burst in Sept/October that is COMPLETELY absent from Manitoba. Why are so many people resisting reality? Stop just saying things without facts, it's irritating and makes you look foolish.

This is precisely why we need experts making these decisions, and not people who run on feelings and vague inaccurate memories.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Though real numbers are hard to find, the estimation was about 200,000 small business closures in Canada, saying "most survived" is the same as saying "a lot closed."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cfib-survey-1.5882059

And you cannot spout such a relative term such as "our civil liberties were barley touched" and then just defend the and downplay the measure that were put in place. Were they that drastic? To some yes and to others (such as yourself) no. Spending time with family and friends is extremely important to some people and to you, well it obviously doesn't matter.

You literally quoted an article of "could" rather than "did"? From 2021?

I invite you to provide me with a more accurate, more recent number. Don't forget to include the number of businesses across the country that survived too, including the businesses that took advantage of emergency programs and funding.

As for civil liberties, those would have been damaged if you weren't even allowed to talk to your friends and family, which most people still did on Zoom, cell phones, or within their own households. Which you could still do until your heart was content.

Your argument still holds no water that civil liberties were compromised.

[PepsiFree]

Alberta is also a fairly well-off province, generally a “have” for most of its recent history. Should we really proudly be pointing to have-not provinces and saying “see? same! we’re the same!”

That’s not a flex.

Does anyone genuinely disagree that public health officials, people hired because of their immense experience and knowledge in health, should be making the decisions in a public health emergency? Why should the government be in charge of diluting public health responses to ensure other aspects are protected (economy, education, etc) and not working in tandem with public health responses to ensure other aspects are protected?

Because it’s a little bit harder? Boo. Freaking. Hoo.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

And moving beyond Covid, the CMOH should be lobbying for the banning of alcohol, tobacco, fast food, desserts, soda, margarine, junk food, processed foods and on and on and on. Should the CMOH have final say on what can and cannot be sold in our society?

Yes, because the CMOH is hired to be an expert on healthcare policy. But don't worry, the UCP put in someone of their own choosing, so instead of doing their job they'll promptly defer to Daniellezebub for who gets the last say.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Manitoba didn't call the military for help.

Why are so many people resisting reality? Stop just saying things without facts, it's irritating and makes you look foolish.

This is precisely why we need experts making these decisions, and not people who run on feelings and vague inaccurate memories.

You must be forgetting that Manitoba did call in the military for support during Covid at least three teams if I'm not mistaken.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

You must be forgetting that Manitoba did call in the military for support during Covid at least three teams if I'm not mistaken.

Sure, but the point of the discussion is around the Delta wave and the government of Alberta's actions at that time, and ignoring the obviously impending catastrophe. I think several provinces had to call for help, in some cases because their own decisions led to cases blowing up beyond their ability to handle.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, but the point of the discussion is around the Delta wave and the government of Alberta's actions at that time, and ignoring the obviously impending catastrophe. I think several provinces had to call for help, in some cases because their own decisions led to cases blowing up beyond their ability to handle.

Manitoba did call in for military support two, maybe three, times during Delta. Your making the comparisons between provinces and made the claim that Manitoba didn't call for military support and that is obviously false.

[aaronck]

Originally Posted by Slava

I read the first sentence, and that's all great. I just disagree. Do we really want bureaucrats making those decisions? I get this situation where you were entirely in favour of lockdowns, but to me that is a dangerous precedent.

If the bureaucrat in question has a title of "Chief Medical Officer" and they are an actual doctor then yes- In this case the politician in charge of healthcare in Alberta was in fact a lawyer, and a bad one at that. I'll take the Doctor's advice thanks!

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by aaronck

If the bureaucrat in question has a title of "Chief Medical Officer" and they are an actual doctor then yes- In this case the politician in charge of healthcare in Alberta was in fact a lawyer, and a bad one at that. I'll take the Doctor's advice thanks!

The same guy who is getting reprimanded by the Law Society of Alberta and lost near unanimous support from the entire physician community across the province.

The UCP can sure pick 'em.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Alberta is also a fairly well-off province, generally a “have” for most of its recent history. Should we really proudly be pointing to have-not provinces and saying “see? same! we’re the same!”

That’s not a flex.

Does anyone genuinely disagree that public health officials, people hired because of their immense experience and knowledge in health, should be making the decisions in a public health emergency? Why should the government be in charge of diluting public health responses to ensure other aspects are protected (economy, education, etc) and not working in tandem with public health responses to ensure other aspects are protected?

Because it’s a little bit harder? Boo. Freaking. Hoo.

Because that is the role of the government. The province has to continue to operate, shutting the province in for two years cannot be an option. If the recommendations from the CMOH don't include those aforementioned aspects the governments job is to find the balance. And this is the way all other departments of the government run in all three levels.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Manitoba did call in for military support two, maybe three, times during Delta. Your making the comparisons between provinces and made the claim that Manitoba didn't call for military support and that is obviously false.

It's amazing you can latch on to one word, and ignore the reality of the data. But anyway, the only reference to military Manitoba I see is the spring of 2021.


https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...tient-airlifts


Do you have other sources? Not that it is at all relevant, because the data shows no fall Delta wave in Manitoba, which is the entire point. But go ahead and ignore that while you hunt for a tiny hole in my statement.

[OptimalTates]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

And not having guests in your home for Christmas during a raging pandemic? Really? This is the hill you die on?

No. This is the hill he would let others die on.

[Ozy_Flame]

The role of a provincial government is to pass legislation and guide operations through said legislation for publicly-funded institutions and infrastructure. They are not to be making decisions based on their own partisan leanings, and certainly not on their insufficient expertise in the field. That's why the government is supposed to be filled with experts in their respective fields. Then, policy analysts take expert recommendations based on scientific data, formulate into policy for the elected officials to pass, and then present it in the Legislature through elected officials.

Unfortunately, the elected officials are the 'gatekeepers' between taxpayer money and citizens. I personally think this is a weak point in operational efficiency, because changing government direction on ideological grounds (which is often the case) creates waste, bloat, and frustrated citizens.