Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GGG

I really like the first question of who is winning he PR battle because it measures a shift of opinion rather than just opinion.

And once the flames offer is on the table you can ask the other question.

I don't think it quite does. It asks who's winning the PR battle, which anyone who's followed along at all knows and will admit is the City.

It doesn't really account for people that admit that the City is winning the PR battle but still want the City to pony up more for an arena and are supportive of the owners.

But like Bunk, I think his and mine are both alright, I'd just like to see some poll added that isn't as convoluted and calculated as previous arena polls.

[Bunk]

- The City is winning the PR battle, and needs to more or less hold firm
- The City is winning the PR battle, but should compromise and give a lot more
- The Flames are winning the PR battle, and should get a lot more than City offer
- The Flames are winning the PR battle, but should compromise and contribute a lot more

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bunk

- The City is winning the PR battle, and needs to hold firm
- The City is winning the PR battle, but should to compromise and give more
- The Flames are winning the PR battle, and should get more than City offer
- The Flames are winning the PR battle, but should compromise and contribute more

Excellent, Bunk! That's perfect, mods can we toss this one up?

EDIT: Yeah, the more I read those options the more they convey pretty much everything we need to know about a fan/citizen without adding so many options that we can't infer anything from the results.

[Bunk]

I edited slightly to be a little less equivocal and add a bit of nuance - like City should "more or less hold firm". There's always some wiggle room.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I edited slightly...

oh well now it's just garbage. Way to ruin it.

[Smartcar]

I donated to Nenshi's campaign because I thought his statement that a new arena isn't to win a Stanley Cup but to make more money was spot on and we need civic leadership that won't cave to the Flames demanding the same deal Edmonton got (that was in the good times and well, Edmonton). I've been a STH for years and I really don't see why we need a new arena just because it's old. But if we really do need one, I really don't want to have to pay for it with tax $$. I'm OK with paying for it with STH $$ since I can choose not to.

[Bunk]

There could be a 5th option:

Indifferent to PR, meet in middle, get 'er done

[Reggie Dunlop]

From a friend's Facebook post....

Guy works in PR.

Spoiler!

[Boreal]

After hearing Ken King speak he seems to not understand or at least mix up the difference between finance & economics. He makes it sound like the Flames ARE the economy of the city and THEY are the one's doing the poor municipal government a favour by contributing "at all" to the glorious arena the city will receive.

He speaks like the community revitalize this facility will enhance is redeveloping an industrial park full of meth labs.

It's in a highly desirable area near downtown & transit where municipal resources have been accumulated and planned for decades with this purpose (entertainment district) in mind.

It's nonsense. They think fans & citizens are stupid. Maybe we are?

The organization's behaviour is astounding. The fact that they kicked off all this discussion with their hissy fit, statement of "non-pursuit" of a deal makes them look terrible. It's the first lesson of public policy, do it behind closed doors in private, like making sausage. Do not let anyone watch. Upfront transparency of any deal with the city is not in their favour, they should have known that, and now they've forced the city's hand.

But he speaks of their patience because they began this process in 2005 or 2006. Give me a break. They want control and/or recourses to maximize profit. No different than any other developer, who I trust to look after the public interest as much as I trust my dog to watch over a T-bone steak dinner.

If anything, I've only learned that Ken King needs to retire & take his silver tongued glad handing to pursuits where it doesn't make him come off sounding like a used car salesman.

The notion of property taxes as cost recovery for the building being reported by the media is stupid & absurd. Everything depreciates & requires ongoing resources for operation & maintenance.

Hearing people discuss this topic on the Fan960, who I thought were reasonably intelligent, has left me dissapinted.

It's worse than the lockout.

They need to just stop talking altogether. Hearing Eric Duhatschek talk about a general survey of asking people he knows in Edmonton if the arena deal has affected their pocket book is just sad, stupid, silly, & pathetic. Knowing nothing of the City of Calgary & Edmonton infrastructure I know that every piece of infrastructure has a life cycle. I imagine both cities have a plan for managing their infrastructure funding deficits & replacement requirements. The problem is that infrastructure replacement is non-linear and hard to predict in the event of extreme weather events.

What happens when an infrastructure failure and/or collapse occurs and the municipal budget is tight? What happens if this problem becomes common?

This is where people feel the financial impact of a stadium. $200 million dollars goes a long way towards infrastructure that ACTUALLY matters to an economy. While an arena is culturally important & significant, and I support some municipal support, it is either an economic burden or insignificant.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

From a friend's Facebook post....

Guy works in PR.

Spoiler!

Less than Wideman's salary. Nice.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bunk

- The City is winning the PR battle, and needs to more or less hold firm
- The City is winning the PR battle, but should compromise and give a lot more
- The Flames are winning the PR battle, and should get a lot more than City offer
- The Flames are winning the PR battle, but should compromise and contribute a lot more

To me this is worse as it confuses the issues winning or losing the PR battle is completely independant.

So you have the straight PR battle question

Then a separate poll that is

I support the city offer
I support compromise but closer to the city offer
I support a compromise that is equally between the two offers
I support compromise but closer to the flames offer
I support the flames offer

Measuring the punditry PR battle question should be independant of which offer you support question.

[nik-]

What about if you want a harder deal than the city offer?

I could probably live with the city deal as it stands, but I wouldn't go as far as saying I support it.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by GGG

To me this is worse as it confuses the issues winning or losing the PR battle is completely independant.

So you have the straight PR battle question

Then a separate poll that is

I support the city offer
I support compromise but closer to the city offer
I support a compromise that is equally between the two offers
I support compromise but closer to the flames offer
I support the flames offer

Measuring the punditry PR battle question should be independant of which offer you support question.

Problem is, we don't know the Flames offer yet - so that'd have to wait. But that's back to my original poll ideas.

This is impossible. It's a good thing CP isn't the ones actually negotiating the arena, we can't negotiate a poll about it!

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Problem is, we don't know the Flames offer yet.

This is impossible.

Agree so asking the negotiating questions needs to wait until we see what the flames offer is next week so just Adkin the PR question now would make sense.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Problem is, we don't know the Flames offer yet - so that'd have to wait. But that's back to my original poll ideas.

This is impossible. It's a good thing CP isn't the ones actually negotiating the arena, we can't negotiate a poll about it!

Maybe we could have a poll poll to pick the best one.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Problem is, we don't know the Flames offer yet - so that'd have to wait. But that's back to my original poll ideas.

This is impossible.

Not really, it's just difficult. There's lots of smart posters here, and I think it's better to pick away at what the best poll would look like before it's put up. It'll be an important one, imo.

Too often we spend so much time on discussion and then someone hastily throws up a poll when posters start asking for one and then the poll becomes useless.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by GGG

Agree so asking the negotiating questions needs to wait until we see what the flames offer is next week so just Adkin the PR question now would make sense.

Yeah, maybe a something like mine with elements of Bunk's but posted AFTER we have a clearer indication of what they're proposing to be fair to both sides of this negotiation.

. I support the Flames in this negotiation

2. I support the City in this negotiation

3. I support the City in this negotiation, but changed my position from supporting the Flames

4. I support the Flames in this negotiation, but changed my position from supporting the City

[nik-]

Poll about the poll.

Lets go deeper.

[Bunk]

I've put up the pure PR one. Explaining another one on proposal sentiment, once the flames' one and City reaction to it becomes more clear.

[Ducay]

I'd say for people who understand business and project economics, KK did a bang up job presenting his side. Both on the dollars side, but also as to the timing and rationale for his statements.

Makes Nenshi look terrible for putting the arena up as part of his election plan, all while knowing it was effectively scuttled.

I would say both are losing the PR battle as Nenshi looks bad, CSEC looks bad, and no one gets an arena.