Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Bonded]

Well CN served a strike notice. We will see what CIRB says now.

[powderjunkie]

The collusion is pretty ####ing nuts. Couldn't CN charge a huge premium to continue operating while their "competitor" is shut down? "Free market" failure.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The collusion is pretty ####ing nuts. Couldn't CN charge a huge premium to continue operating while their "competitor" is shut down? "Free market" failure.

Kind of but not really. Companies just won't ship as they can push off their shipments due to the strike and extending contracts. The CN also can't run on the CP and vice versa. Some rates are regulated like grain and any overcharge will just mean less revenue in the future in Ag. The railroads aren't and never have been free market. The only option really is to nationalize it if you want to get away from the duopoly.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The collusion is pretty ####ing nuts. Couldn't CN charge a huge premium to continue operating while their "competitor" is shut down? "Free market" failure.

But is the collusion really surprising?

Bread pricing fixing scandal anyone?

Business in the same market colluding is standard operating procedure in Canada.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Well CN served a strike notice. We will see what CIRB says now.

Also will be interesting what CPKC will do.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Azure

There is no point in discussing this with you if you can't admit to the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars wouldn't be lost every single day, and that thousands of businesses & individuals across Canada would be affected, every SINGLE day.

I didn’t say there wouldn’t be losses or people affected. Is there any point in discussing this with you if you are going to be putting words in my mouth and making statements that aren’t based in reality?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Azure

But is the collusion really surprising?

Not really, because they know people like yourself will support them in it by applauding the government for letting them get away with it.

[surferguy]

I’m camping in Johnson Canyon and I haven’t heard one train go through yet. The most peaceful this campground has ever been. That said my 9 yr old loves trains so this is his worst nightmare.

Thanks Trudeau

My son - probably

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Yes! This is a national concern and an international embarrassment coming along the heels of other significant work stoppages, strikes, lockouts, border crossing blockades, port strikes, CBSA concerns and everything else I mentioned.

A national embarrassment? Good lord, strikes happen everyday all over the planet. You might not like it but guess what? A lot of people disagree with your opinion.

The railroads and the unions were too far apart in their dealings that it was always going to go down this route. to my knowledge there was nothing stopping the government from going with binding arbitration at all. Both side were not arguing about a point here and there. One side said 2+2 = 5 and the other side is saying that it equals kangaroo zoo. There was no discussion to be had between the two.

I think you’re using the term knowledge pretty loosely.

There was nothing stopping the government from going to binding arbitration at all? Do you mean aside from optics, laws and the charter of rights and freedoms?

If you have inside knowledge of what was discussed at the table between the parties I think you should state that and disclose your source, if not I think you should state that too, retract your comments and acknowledge that they were pure conjecture on your part.

Government can indicate very strong preferences for a deal to be done, very strong. You can put the message out that both sides in whatever dispute can cut the ****. Effectively that is what binding arbitration tries to achieve.

I’m going to venture a guess that you have very little, likely none, experience in collective bargaining. Binding arbitration should be used as an absolute last resort in a dispute, not less than 24 hours into a strike when other options were available. It’s not conducive to good labour relations.

Canada is the 2nd largest country in the world, 1 of our 2 major airlines had a strike/lockout a month ago that caused chaos with everybody and imposed untold financial and emotional hardship on travelers. Now we have both national railways that operate in Canada in the same scenario, both of which have significant US, Mexico and international exposure and dealings. Yesterday we had the other airline discussing strike/lockout actions. Great! More chaos ! Real serious country and business environment we have here.

The hyperbole is strong with you. Some flights getting cancelled over a weekend isn’t what I would define as chaos, it was also completely avoidable. I had a flight cancelled recently due to hail damage, I wouldn’t classify the experience as chaotic.

The federal government is beyond useless in this regard and it shows, highlighted by the fact that literally every single business organization, trade group, provincial government and more specifically said do not allow this historic railway action to go through. We can't afford the concerns and the costs! Just so you don't think this is a Trudeau thing, I assume the other side would be just as useless in the exact same scenario.

Well at least now we’re getting somewhere in figuring out what it is you really want. So if you want the government to be able to act arbitrarily and deny people’s rights whenever they feel like it just say so. I don’t think it’s going to be a very popular opinion and it’s not one that I personally agree with. But the beauty of democracy is we don’t always have to agree, with that being said you should own what you’re pushing for.

Everybody forgetting that there are billions of dollars at stake and confidence in business and employment that needs to be restored. We are suppose to be a modern economy, this isn't a Pepsi stand that has closed up shop for lunch.

You think a modern economy should allow for government and big businesses to team up to trample rights that people fought and died for? Hot take.

Everyone is aware of what is at stake.

This reminds me of the Freedom Convey and the closure of the Ambassador Bridge linking Detriot and Windsor. Government officials of all stripes playing games and having a deer in the headlight look. Nothing getting done until the White House called with a "Knock this BS off and get this border open" and all of a sudden action takes place 5 days later.

Hard working everyday Canadians trying to exercise their legal rights to try and improve their quality of life while the government and their employers try to stop them reminds you of when a whole bunch of people tried to topple a democratically elected government? Another hot take.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think the government can legally get involved until a strike or lockout is declared.

But curves is right, the Feds have a history here of sitting on their ass and doing nothing until it comes to the breaking point.

Does the breaking point happen to coincide with the type of action that allows the government to legally get involved?

Is allowing hitherto illegal, but swifter, federal government intervention in the economy the solution that is being called for?

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

A national embarrassment? Good lord, strikes happen everyday all over the planet. You might not like it but guess what? A lot of people disagree with your opinion.



I think you’re using the term knowledge pretty loosely.

There was nothing stopping the government from going to binding arbitration at all? Do you mean aside from optics, laws and the charter of rights and freedoms?

If you have inside knowledge of what was discussed at the table between the parties I think you should state that and disclose your source, if not I think you should state that too, retract your comments and acknowledge that they were pure conjecture on your part.



I’m going to venture a guess that you have very little, likely none, experience in collective bargaining. Binding arbitration should be used as an absolute last resort in a dispute, not less than 24 hours into a strike when other options were available. It’s not conducive to good labour relations.



The hyperbole is strong with you. Some flights getting cancelled over a weekend isn’t what I would define as chaos, it was also completely avoidable. I had a flight cancelled recently due to hail damage, I wouldn’t classify the experience as chaotic.



Well at least now we’re getting somewhere in figuring out what it is you really want. So if you want the government to be able to act arbitrarily and deny people’s rights whenever they feel like it just say so. I don’t think it’s going to be a very popular opinion and it’s not one that I personally agree with. But the beauty of democracy is we don’t always have to agree, with that being said you should own what you’re pushing for.



You think a modern economy should allow for government and big businesses to team up to trample rights that people fought and died for? Hot take.

Everyone is aware of what is at stake.



Hard working everyday Canadians trying to exercise their legal rights to try and improve their quality of life while the government and their employers try to stop them reminds you of when a whole bunch of people tried to topple a democratically elected government? Another hot take.

Iggy,

I think your bias is showing and it's clouding your judgement as I haven't taken a side or position in this fight. I am FULLY aware of the concerns that employees from the former Hunter Harrison ran CP and CN may have with regards to a lot of things.

You don't need inside knowledge about what is happening to see how far apart the sides are. The railroads, the government and the unions are saying it. Believe them when they talk. The unions are concerned with XYZ and forced relocations and the railroads are bringing up salary increases and getting no counter offer. They are beyond miles apart.


Your comparing strikes that happen everyday at whatever business to a railroad? Good thing the Teamsters don't have you on the bargaining or else you would give up the farm. Sounds like you really undervalue their work over at the railroads. Although not really a sexy industry, virtually every single item is transported by rail at some point. Process that! Every single Canadian and every business relies on rail by the two companies so this isn't some small time thing, there is a reason why a national rail strike on the size and scope of this is of national concern and international embarrassment.

The importance of rail in 2024 is the same importance as computers, smartphones, credit and debit cards, it's just less sexy. A railroad conductor and engineer doesn't have the same social cache as a Silicon Valley tech guy up they are about the same level. Would you be ok and comfortable with Apple and Microsoft shutting down operations and services in Canada? Would you be willing to fight the good fight for the employees of those two companies despite the impact on your life and everybody else? Would your friends and family be willing to do the same?


You can't have this level of chaos when it comes to vital transportation and infrastructure, government can show some leadership and get the message across to figure it out and quit the BS. Try and think a little outside the box, there is an election in the US at stake in the coming weeks. Democrats are fighting for working people, trying to get inflation under control, improve their position to win key states. You think American business, union leaders, Democrats and more really want a long, national railroad strike to affect them and their business because the #1 trading partner just can't figure it out? You really don't think pressure has come from the White House to apply some pressure to avoid this entire mess? Give me a break.

I don't have a side in this, I just know that we can't have this happening.

[btimbit]

I'm equal parts incredibly annoyed at the whole thing, while also giving a big thumbs up to labour movement giving a big eff you to the government stomping on their rights

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I'm equal parts incredibly annoyed at the whole thing, while also giving a big thumbs up to labour movement giving a big eff you to the government stomping on their rights

Don't forget the railroads that steered this into being a dual strike

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Iggy,

Curvy,

I think your bias is showing and it's clouding your judgement as I haven't taken a side or position in this fight.

Nah, you’re just trying to distract from someone calling out your BS. “I’m not gonna respond to direct requests, look over there Iggy likes Unions so we should dismiss what he’s saying based on that.” Classic. Weak, but classic.

I am FULLY aware of the concerns that employees from the former Hunter Harrison ran CP and CN may have with regards to a lot of things.

Really? Based on what? The things you’ve heard in the news?

You don't need inside knowledge about what is happening to see how far apart the sides are.

You kinda do. If you’d bother to ask anyone on a picket line what is going on you’d know not everything is being reported and even a lot of what is being reported isn’t always being very clearly presented.

The railroads, the government and the unions are saying it. Believe them when they talk.

Couldn’t help but chuckle at someone telling me to trust both a bunch of politicians and a company that has publicly stated that the Union is trying to hold the country hostage when they are the ones who locked them out in the first place.

The unions are concerned with XYZ and forced relocations and the railroads are bringing up salary increases and getting no counter offer. They are beyond miles apart.

You’d be surprised how fast a work stoppage entices both parties to get a deal done.

Your comparing strikes that happen everyday at whatever business to a railroad?

No. Good thing I’m typing this out otherwise it would be difficult to talk with all these words you’re trying to put in my mouth.

Good thing the Teamsters don't have you on the bargaining or else you would give up the farm.

I disagree.

Sounds like you really undervalue their work over at the railroads.

Perhaps you should have your ears checked by a professional.

Although not really a sexy industry, virtually every single item is transported by rail at some point. Process that!

Your statement has been processed.

Every single Canadian and every business relies on rail by the two companies so this isn't some small time thing, there is a reason why a national rail strike on the size and scope of this is of national concern and international embarrassment.

According to you it’s an embarrassment yet you haven’t really established how it differs from other serious rail strikes in other countries.

The importance of rail in 2024 is the same importance as computers, smartphones, credit and debit cards, it's just less sexy. A railroad conductor and engineer doesn't have the same social cache as a Silicon Valley tech guy up they are about the same level.

I don’t really see a tech guy as sexier than a conductor or vice versa but who you choose to have a thing for is up to you.

Would you be ok and comfortable with Apple and Microsoft shutting down operations and services in Canada?

On a temporary incidental basis? It would probably depend on the circumstances but I’m inclined to say that I wouldn’t be universally opposed to it.

Would you be willing to fight the good fight for the employees of those two companies despite the impact on your life and everybody else?

It’s cute how you keep trying to frame your questions as these being all or nothing matters, there’s nuance to these scenarios. If I agree that their position is reasonable and the impact is tolerable overall, I would.

Would your friends and family be willing to do the same?

You’re asking me to read peoples minds at this point but I’m sure that some would and that some might not support them.

You can't have this level of chaos when it comes to vital transportation and infrastructure, government can show some leadership and get the message across to figure it out and quit the BS.

There’s that word again, chaos. You throw it around too liberally for it to be taken seriously.

Try and think a little outside the box,

As long as we keep the outside based in reality, ok.

there is an election in the US at stake in the coming weeks.

Please tell me you’re not going to try and say this is going to seriously impact the US election.

Democrats are fighting for working people, trying to get inflation under control, improve their position to win key states. You think American business, union leaders, Democrats and more really want a long, national railroad strike to affect them and their business because the #1 trading partner just can't figure it out? You really don't think pressure has come from the White House to apply some pressure to avoid this entire mess? Give me a break.

Oh my goodness you actually did. And then you actually used it as an implied argument for why we should accept OUR government’s actions in OUR country when the US tells them what to do.

Give me break, this is too much.

I don't have a side in this, I just know that we can't have this happening.

We can’t? A work stoppage is literally happening so thus far it appears as though we can have this happening.

Remember what I said earlier about keeping the outside of the box based in reality? Ending your post as it began by repeating that you don’t have a side when you clearly do, was a nice touch.

[CliffFletcher]

Sobering article about the financial trouble Canada’s public transit systems are in (and public finances in general).

Vancouver public transit is in trouble, and it’s not the only one

…During the pandemic, a scheduled fare increase was cancelled. In subsequent years, those increases have been held at levels below inflation. (TransLink couldn’t raise its rates to cover annual inflation percentage increases that reached 6.8 per cent in 2022 because, it argued, people couldn’t afford it. Also, the B.C. government almost certainly wouldn’t have allowed giant fare increases).

Meantime, the costs to TransLink of things such as construction, labour, fuel, maintenance and new vehicles have been increasing at astronomical rates.

It’s all added up to a pending disaster for the B.C. government.

And we haven’t even talked about the costs of transit-related initiatives such as the expansion of its light rail system. It was recently revealed that a planned extension of the SkyTrain system is already facing a $2-billion overrun, bringing the now-anticipated final bill to around $6-billion. There are other transit-related projects facing similarly daunting cost pressures.

I wish this was a uniquely B.C. story that could solely be blamed on government and bureaucratic incompetence, but it’s not. This is a countrywide phenomenon that highlights the mind-numbing challenges facing governments when it comes to funding transit systems.

This was underscored in a report released in May by Leading Mobility Canada, which warned that the country’s biggest cities were struggling to keep their transit systems running. Without a solid and sustainable funding plan going forward, the report said, these same transit systems would begin a rapid downward spiral that would take years to reverse…

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...-take-transit/

Tldr: Costs for building and operating transit systems have risen dramatically, there’s no way fares can be raised to match those costs, and governments are reluctant to impose higher property taxes to shoulder a larger burden of the costs. Especially when the costs of other infrastructure projects, like replacing aging water infrastructure, is soaring.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Curvy,



Nah, you’re just trying to distract from someone calling out your BS. “I’m not gonna respond to direct requests, look over there Iggy likes Unions so we should dismiss what he’s saying based on that.” Classic. Weak, but classic.



Really? Based on what? The things you’ve heard in the news?



You kinda do. If you’d bother to ask anyone on a picket line what is going on you’d know not everything is being reported and even a lot of what is being reported isn’t always being very clearly presented.



Couldn’t help but chuckle at someone telling me to trust both a bunch of politicians and a company that has publicly stated that the Union is trying to hold the country hostage when they are the ones who locked them out in the first place.



You’d be surprised how fast a work stoppage entices both parties to get a deal done.



No. Good thing I’m typing this out otherwise it would be difficult to talk with all these words you’re trying to put in my mouth.



I disagree.



Perhaps you should have your ears checked by a professional.



Your statement has been processed.



According to you it’s an embarrassment yet you haven’t really established how it differs from other serious rail strikes in other countries.



I don’t really see a tech guy as sexier than a conductor or vice versa but who you choose to have a thing for is up to you.



On a temporary incidental basis? It would probably depend on the circumstances but I’m inclined to say that I wouldn’t be universally opposed to it.



It’s cute how you keep trying to frame your questions as these being all or nothing matters, there’s nuance to these scenarios. If I agree that their position is reasonable and the impact is tolerable overall, I would.



You’re asking me to read peoples minds at this point but I’m sure that some would and that some might not support them.



There’s that word again, chaos. You throw it around too liberally for it to be taken seriously.



As long as we keep the outside based in reality, ok.



Please tell me you’re not going to try and say this is going to seriously impact the US election.



Oh my goodness you actually did. And then you actually used it as an implied argument for why we should accept OUR government’s actions in OUR country when the US tells them what to do.

Give me break, this is too much.



We can’t? A work stoppage is literally happening so thus far it appears as though we can have this happening.

Remember what I said earlier about keeping the outside of the box based in reality? Ending your post as it began by repeating that you don’t have a side when you clearly do, was a nice touch.

I really don't have a side in this, I am on the side of logic, the economy, peoples pocket book and more. Trust me when I say that. I have no problem stating positions and taking a side on one thing or another but in this, this shouldn't be happening like the other instances I made.

If you are an employee of CP or CN and are currently on the picket lines, I can see how this is deeply personal to you. If you are not and this is still deeply personal to you that's fine as well.

There are political and economic realities that are going to take shape for the company, the union and the government. At this stage everybody thinks they can fight the good fight until the bitter end, that just doesn't happen in real life. Everybody breaks, it's human nature.

The companies think they can continue this using spartan staff, accountants and managers who aren't unionized to become railroaders all of a sudden. Sure it will work in a few cases and instances for a little while. Eventually you need your workers back. Customers are going to be absolutely crushed by this and are going to be pissed off. When the final details of the deal are released and we see what a gong show this was for what little this ended up costing the company, it will anger people.

The federal government can try and pretend all is well and they won't take a stand but we already know where this is going if we are being honest about it. Binding arbitration and back to work legislation. If that doesn't bring a close, it will be an agreed contract with both sides losing a lot of what they were promised.

Union: The union is looking after it's members and rightfully so, are they being 100% honest with where this is going to go? Do they have an actual plan for union pressure within the Teamsters union from other industries represented by them that have been and are going to be affected? What is the appetite from union members across Canada and the US to have thousands of dollars in losses as a result of this action? People will fight until death for things that are their fight, but if its not, do you really care to the same degree? What dollar value in losses are you willing to accept in this? I am not talking about an overtime shift to show support, I am talking about real dollars.

Let me guess where this ends up, with everybody a winner? The company, the union, the workers, the federal government who stuck up for Canadians, the workers and businesses? It's like the Oprah show, everybody will win something with the great railstrike of 2024.

I am out, peace

[PepsiFree]

Everyone should just hire curves to solve every problem because he somehow knows everything and everyone else who runs anything else apparently has no idea what they’re doing.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Everyone should just hire curves to solve every problem because he somehow knows everything and everyone else who runs anything else apparently has no idea what they’re doing.

Can you imagine if he teamed up with Fuzz ! Combined they could cure cancer and create a perpetual motion machine by morning (assuming Fuzz read a few articles overnight on the subjects)

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I really don't have a side in this, I am on the side of logic, the economy, peoples pocket book and more. Trust me when I say that. I have no problem stating positions and taking a side on one thing or another but in this, this shouldn't be happening like the other instances I made.

Well that settles it I guess.

If you are an employee of CP or CN and are currently on the picket lines, I can see how this is deeply personal to you. If you are not and this is still deeply personal to you that's fine as well.

I don’t work for either or those companies but whether most working people realize it or not, the actions of the companies and the government affects them.

There are political and economic realities that are going to take shape for the company, the union and the government. At this stage everybody thinks they can fight the good fight until the bitter end, that just doesn't happen in real life. Everybody breaks, it's human nature.

Everybody breaks you say? Isn’t that an argument for not intervening?

The companies think they can continue this using spartan staff, accountants and managers who aren't unionized to become railroaders all of a sudden. Sure it will work in a few cases and instances for a little while.

I don’t think the companies believe that for a second. Do you have evidence to support your theory?

Eventually you need your workers back. Customers are going to be absolutely crushed by this and are going to be pissed off.

Absolutely crushed? How have they not already gone out of business if that’s the case? Is there any point where you would put reasonable needs of the workers ahead of the customers?

When the final details of the deal are released and we see what a gong show this was for what little this ended up costing the company, it will anger people.

So you’re saying they should support the workers?

The federal government can try and pretend all is well and they won't take a stand but we already know where this is going if we are being honest about it.

What planet are you living on? They’ve already taken a stance.

Binding arbitration and back to work legislation. If that doesn't bring a close, it will be an agreed contract with both sides losing a lot of what they were promised.

If that doesn’t bring a close? What they were promised? Both sides losing?

It’s becoming abundantly clear that you have no idea how this process works. Arbitrators aren’t going to impose massive concessions to both parties and neither side gets promised anything.

Union: The union is looking after it's members and rightfully so, are they being 100% honest with where this is going to go?

Um…they said they were going on strike and they went on strike. What exactly are you unclear on as far as their intentions are concerned?

Do they have an actual plan for union pressure within the Teamsters union from other industries represented by them that have been and are going to be affected? What is the appetite from union members across Canada and the US to have thousands of dollars in losses as a result of this action? People will fight until death for things that are their fight, but if its not, do you really care to the same degree? What dollar value in losses are you willing to accept in this? I am not talking about an overtime shift to show support, I am talking about real dollars.

All this remains to seen I suppose. An equally if not more important question would be how far are the companies willing to take this?

Let me guess where this ends up, with everybody a winner? The company, the union, the workers, the federal government who stuck up for Canadians, the workers and businesses? It's like the Oprah show, everybody will win something with the great railstrike of 2024.

Well the companies are highly profitable, and they’ll still be highly profitable so I guess that’s a win for them.

What the Union gets remains to be seen but if they improve the offer from where it currently stand I’d say that’s a win.

The government? Why is the government supposed to win anything here?

I am out, peace

I’ll agree that you’re out I suppose.

[Delthefunky]

I really thought that the play from the Teamsters was to let CN go back to work, since they had not actually served a strike notice. This would have allowed CPKC to continue striking, and CIRB would be OK with that since atleast 1 railroad remains operating. This would have forced CPKC to finally come to the bargaining table and hammer out a deal. Then CN just follows suit.

That all went out the window though once CN served strike notice, so I guess we just wait and see what happens.