[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is why most things aren't put to a vote - most things would be voted down. The recent Olympics are one example, but it's largely true. Had they had a vote for the music center or the new library, would they have passed? If they had a vote for a stretch of highway, or a train #cough#lrt, would they pass?

The bottom line is that the majority of people don't use most things. And if you ask them to vote, they'll only vote for things that they want. And then nothing gets built.

Ya, that was kind of my point. If you want these things, you don't ask for the general public to vote on them, becuase the support is a lot lower than you think it is.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

This is true and it’s usually based on a significant lack of information. Example: how much did this deal cost the average homeowner?

It's not really that though. It is exactly because of what Enoch said. The majority of people in the city won't use the arena. Won't go to the Library Won't ride a CTrain extension. Won't walk on a new pedestrian bridge.

You can explain how low the cost is per person and it won't matter. For many people, If they don't use it, they don't want to pay anything. Funding anything by plebiscite is an absolute disaster.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by La Flames Fan

This article will probably answer a few questions:

Confused about Calgary's collapsed arena deal? City hall reporter Scott Dippel answers some FAQs

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...ium%3Dsharebar

Good lord, this bit is so ridiculous for CSEC.


The climate resiliency of this building was something that had been talked about over the past year. There was a long list of climate initiatives that it was going to incorporate and that the Flames ownership group was touting.

The NHL has a green initiative, and this building was going to be in line with it.

And then it's like, "Hey, wait, nobody told us we were going to have to pay for the costs of this."

The reality is that sidewalks and climate initiatives are red herring distractions as to why this fell apart. CSEC is panicking about overall rising costs (which they also agreed to take on from the amended deal) and those are the bigger issues, but that makes them look weak. If you look at this even skin deep it’s very obvious why this fell apart.

Also, laying the blame for this on the mayor is super disingenuous as well. She wasn’t involved in the requests or the negotiation, at least not directly, so her effort to be transparent about what the Flames also said as to why the deal fell apart is being vilified, and I don’t understand that.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is why most things aren't put to a vote - most things would be voted down. The recent Olympics are one example, but it's largely true. Had they had a vote for the music center or the new library, would they have passed? If they had a vote for a stretch of highway, or a train #cough#lrt, would they pass?

The bottom line is that the majority of people don't use most things. And if you ask them to vote, they'll only vote for things that they want. And then nothing gets built.

All true. A big thing to distinguish is the barrier to entry for each item. Roads, libraries, bridges, and transit are totally accessible.

Music Centre, rec centres, convention centres, Stampede, etc. have a modest barrier to entry and may not always be totally available to everyone.

One could argue that Hitmen and Roughnecks tix have some tix that are modestly priced, but neither actually require a $500M+ building to function.

Then there are things like say the airport - pretty substantial barrier to entry, but the downstream benefits are massive and more quantifiable.

[Manhattanboy]

That's why I was so disappointed that a community rink was scrapped from the design. It would have been cool if somehow the rinks could have been connected in some manner - with public skating going on at the same time as a Flames practice. You take a break from skating on the community rink, grab a coffee and take in the Flames practice for a while.

You make the team accessible to people who would never go to a game.

I think this is the model in places like Vegas (which built a very cool practice facility).

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

That's why I was so disappointed that a community rink was scrapped from the design. It would have been cool if somehow the rinks could have been connected in some manner - with public skating going on at the same time as a Flames practice. You take a break from skating on the community rink, grab a coffee and take in the Flames practice for a while.

You make the team accessible to people who would never go to a game.

I think this is the model in places like Vegas (which built a very cool practice facility).

The Coyotes are doing this, if their Tempe RFP moves forward. Practice rink and hub for their amateur hockey initiatives right next door to the arena and Tempe Entertainment District they are planning. Right now they use the Ice Den in Scottsdale which is owned by one of the original Coyotes owners. (Who sold his shares btw when the team announce the move to Glendale because he knew it would never work)

[cral12]

Originally Posted by cral12

I've seen nuggets of posts breaking down what's happened between cities and owners in other NHL cities, but haven't seen (or missed if posted) a full breakdown. Has anyone seen an article highlighting this?

(probabaly I should check to see if Freeway has done such a breakdown at Flames Nation).

https://twitter.com/user/status/1479498613755629574

"@Nikoskioussis
Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver, all privately financed."

True?

I love hockey. Love the Flames. I realized this issue is very nuanced and complex.
My admitted bias is that I find it difficult to get behind YYC (ultimately us as taxpayers) even 50% of the cost of this project when by seemingly most measure the franchise benefits substantially financially, realizing that some of the benefits to a city cannot be necessarily quantified (though these may also be overestimated). Especially when owners involved seem to stop at nothing to hold onto every last cent...
I dunno. Open-minded and flexible, so interested in ideas that might change my mind...

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

That's why I was so disappointed that a community rink was scrapped from the design. It would have been cool if somehow the rinks could have been connected in some manner - with public skating going on at the same time as a Flames practice. You take a break from skating on the community rink, grab a coffee and take in the Flames practice for a while.

You make the team accessible to people who would never go to a game.

I think this is the model in places like Vegas (which built a very cool practice facility).

That's not really what the community rink would have been. It would have been like what they have in Edmonton where "Community Arena" is just a fancy way of saying, "We want the city to pay for our practice rink, and we'll let the public skate on it if we're not using it -- sometimes."

You wouldn't have public ice time available at the same time as a practice because they'd be using the ice for their practice.


Basically, Calgary already has what you're talking about at Winsport, where the Flames practice sometimes, and will probably do so even more now that the Corral is rubble.


Really, having a practice rink at the arena is good for the teams, but it's not really a great community asset because to use it, the public has to make their way to Stampede Park and likely will need to pay for parking and the ice won't likely be available any time there's something going on in the main arena.

[Joborule]

If there was going to be a community rink(s) built in the downtown vicinity (which I think there should be), I would like to see it done at Lindsey Park since that is a public recreational facility.

[rage2]

Originally Posted by cral12

https://twitter.com/user/status/1479498613755629574

"@Nikoskioussis
Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver, all privately financed."

True?

Toronto is the only success story, but that market is so huge naming rights alone are worth $800m.

Ottawa went bankrupt. Vancouver and Montreal continued to lose money and was forced to sell at losses to stop the bleeding.

Winnipeg started with $40m public money, but added another $100m 8 years later because True North was struggling with the debt. That adds up to more than the original cost of the building.

So yes, they were all privately funded but all failed except for Toronto.

[GranteedEV]

Can we just tear down Northhill Mall and turn it into Northhill Event Centre + Seniors Loitering Lounge?

It's right by a C-Train too. A little out of downtown, but not significantly so via 14th street.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by rage2

Ottawa went bankrupt. Vancouver and Montreal continued to lose money and was forced to sell at losses to stop the bleeding.

The Canadian dollar is what caused the Habs fire sale, and their insane property taxes. The Molson’s were able to buy the team back for well more than double the price the brewery sold it for. Gillette took on the financing of the arena and made hundreds of millions, and since he sold it the Molson’s have made hundreds of millions as well.

Griffiths had other money problems that put the strain on his situation, but was bought out by another owner when the rest of his family members wanted to sell their stakes. But Orca Bay kept going with the arena financing successfully without him. It’d be like CSECs paying for an arena, and Edwards buys out the rest of the owners because they were struggling with the dollar and their other businesses suffering, and Edwards reaps the rewards later. The richer owner who’s primary income was in American dollars won out. The Aquilini’s buying in have made big gains as well.

Even Ottawa’s case has more to do with non-building stuff. Building in the suburbs was stupid, but they had the rug pulled out from under them when a bunch of land they had didn’t get rezoned as was the plan (effectively cutting the developable area in half which was a big part of the project. The death blow came when the facility management company went bankrupt because of the Enron scandal (seriously) and the team followed suit.

[dino7c]

Its going to Airdrie...and then you guys can say it only takes 15 mins to get to the game

[SeeGeeWhy]

I’m in commercial mechanical contracting, and as a builder it scares the hell out of me to think about signing on for a project with a partner as skiddish as the CSEC is coming across as. Do you have any idea how hard it is to collect as a contractor right now? It’s a god damn nightmare. When is that sweet inflation currency coming our way? Having a more diverse and deep pocketed investment group behind this would be reassuring to be totally honest.

[rage2]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The Canadian dollar is what caused the Habs fire sale, and their insane property taxes. The Molson’s were able to buy the team back for well more than double the price the brewery sold it for. Gillette took on the financing of the arena and made hundreds of millions, and since he sold it the Molson’s have made hundreds of millions as well.

Griffiths had other money problems that put the strain on his situation, but was bought out by another owner when the rest of his family members wanted to sell their stakes. But Orca Bay kept going with the arena financing successfully without him. It’d be like CSECs paying for an arena, and Edwards buys out the rest of the owners because they were struggling with the dollar and their other businesses suffering, and Edwards reaps the rewards later. The richer owner who’s primary income was in American dollars won out. The Aquilini’s buying in have made big gains as well.

Even Ottawa’s case has more to do with non-building stuff. Building in the suburbs was stupid, but they had the rug pulled out from under them when a bunch of land they had didn’t get rezoned as was the plan (effectively cutting the developable area in half which was a big part of the project. The death blow came when the facility management company went bankrupt because of the Enron scandal (seriously) and the team followed suit.

Regardless of the underlying factors on why owners had to sell, the new owners/existing partners bought the assets at a discount, getting an arena cheaper than it would cost to construct, before it became financially successful. Money has to come from somewhere, in this case the arena was effectively subsidized by the previous owners losses in the sale.

It’s like saying look how much money GM is making today, they would’ve been successful anyways, ignoring the fact that bankruptcy wiped out a huge amount of debt. Money has to come from somewhere.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by rage2

Regardless of the underlying factors on why owners had to sell, the new owners/existing partners bought the assets at a discount, getting an arena cheaper than it would cost to construct, before it became financially successful. Money has to come from somewhere, in this case the arena was effectively subsidized by the previous owners losses in the sale.

It’s like saying look how much money GM is making today, they would’ve been successful anyways, ignoring the fact that bankruptcy wiped out a huge amount of debt. Money has to come from somewhere.

How much money did the owners make on the sale of the teams?

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by rage2

Regardless of the underlying factors on why owners had to sell, the new owners/existing partners bought the assets at a discount, getting an arena cheaper than it would cost to construct, before it became financially successful. Money has to come from somewhere, in this case the arena was effectively subsidized by the previous owners losses in the sale.

It’s like saying look how much money GM is making today, they would’ve been successful anyways, ignoring the fact that bankruptcy wiped out a huge amount of debt. Money has to come from somewhere.

The Canucks and Habs didn’t go bankrupt, the construction debt remained (and in both cases, ownership continuity still remained). Molson only sold off 80% of its stake in the Habs, and the McCaw’s bought out Griffiths of Orca Bay. Molson more than doubled its value of the remaining stake in the team when the family bought the team and arena back.

[powderjunkie]

It's always funny to me that pro public $$ arguments often include:
- all of these other projects failed
- the team barely makes any money

Neither idea inspires a lot of confidence, though all evidence of franchise values and general league revenues (at least prior to COVID) contradict them.

[Cappy]

If you’re business model relies on steady streams of public funding then you need to rethink that business model… unless the public is willing to continue funding it that is

[carmenshoes]

Originally Posted by Cappy

If you’re business model relies on steady streams of public funding then you need to rethink that business model… unless the public is willing to continue funding it that is

Than players need to take a pay cut.