[Signing] Flames sign James Neal (5 years, 5.75 AAV)

[GullFoss]

Did anyone notice how much ice-time neal got last game? Almost as much as a top-6, which is mind-boggling given how bad he was!!!

Backlund - 22
Johnny - 22
Monahan - 20
Lindholm - 20
Tkachuk - 17
Bennett - 17
Neal - 17
Janko - 12
Ryan - 10
Quine - 10
Hathaway - 8
Lomberg - 3

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think TC's estimates were pretty off the cuff. I see this guy's posts here, in the GT, in the PGT, etc.

Sure, but still relevant. And in those cases, such as last night when Peters - who certainly has not made many mistakes to this point - inexplicably decides the third period of a tie game against the best team in the league is the time to give Neal a big push - and he not only does nothing positive, but loses his man on the 4-3 goal - its going to get commented on.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Sure, but still relevant. And in those cases, such as last night when Peters - who certainly has not made many mistakes to this point - inexplicably decides the third period of a tie game against the best team in the league is the time to give Neal a big push - and he not only does nothing positive, but loses his man on the 4-3 goal - its going to get commented on.

No, not always relevant, in the GT. More like hovering until Neal does something and then getting to post.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Sure, but still relevant. And in those cases, such as last night when Peters - who certainly has not made many mistakes to this point - inexplicably decides the third period of a tie game against the best team in the league is the time to give Neal a big push - and he not only does nothing positive, but loses his man on the 4-3 goal - its going to get commented on.

You realize that was a bit of a track meet with the Lightning, right? Lindholm had played a lot and had killed a lot of penalties and Bennett was throwing his weight around and skating hard. I don’t like how Neal has played but to blame Peters is a bit odd. It was the best team in the league and the Flames literally needed “all hands on deck”. The fact that Neal failed isn’t really on Peters. It’s on Neal.

Just goes the show the difference between the Flames and Lightning. Flames are short probably two scorers and they desperately need Neal and Jankowski to be legit top six guys. The Flames can match up with the Lightning on the top 5 forwards but they don’t have anyone in pat with guys like Miller, Palat, Killorn, Gourde. In one game, the Flames can hang, but in a seven game series, the depth difference will show. Hell it showed last night by the fact that Peters had to put a struggling Neal out there.

[Kipper_3434]

The folks defending Neal are the same who defended Brouwer. He's hot garbage right now, the defenders have gone from "it's too early to criticize", to "the team is winning so just ignore it", to "he seems like a good locker room guy".

Sound Familiar?

Treliving deserves criticism too, you bet the owners criticize when they have to fork out millions of dollars on buyouts every year.

Hoping we can use an LA or Chicago clause to get out of this contract. Too many damn buyouts already.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

The folks defending Neal are the same who defended Brouwer. He's hot garbage right now, the defenders have gone from "it's too early to criticize", to "the team is winning so just ignore it", to "he seems like a good locker room guy".

What I'm mostly seeing is, ‘The money is already spent and the contract is untradeable. Let's at least try to salvage the guy instead of blowing more assets to make him go away.’ If that counts as ‘defending’, I plead guilty.

By the way, I don't see Treliving coming under any heat at all for this. Right wing was a disaster area for the team in recent years, so he moved to address it. Nobody could have foreseen that Lindholm would blow away all his personal scoring records and make himself a fixture on the top line. Because of that, there simply isn't a legitimate spot for Neal in the lineup.

Some posters' attitude reminds me of the old gag about the Scotsman who bought two lottery tickets, and one of them won $10 million. He had always been a gloomy guy, but winning made him more depressed than ever.

‘What's the matter with you, Sandy?’ one of his friends asked. ‘You're a millionaire now, why so glum?’

‘Hoot, mon,’ said the Scotsman. ‘’Tis this other ticket. Why I ever bought it I cannot imagine.’

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What I'm mostly seeing is, ‘The money is already spent and the contract is untradeable. Let's at least try to salvage the guy instead of blowing more assets to make him go away.’ If that counts as ‘defending’, I plead guilty.

By the way, I don't see Treliving coming under any heat at all for this. Right wing was a disaster area for the team in recent years, so he moved to address it. Nobody could have foreseen that Lindholm would blow away all his personal scoring records and make himself a fixture on the top line. Because of that, there simply isn't a legitimate spot for Neal in the lineup.

Some posters' attitude reminds me of the old gag about the Scotsman who bought two lottery tickets, and one of them won $10 million. He had always been a gloomy guy, but winning made him more depressed than ever.

‘What's the matter with you, Sandy?’ one of his friends asked. ‘You're a millionaire now, why so glum?’

‘Hoot, mon,’ said the Scotsman. ‘’Tis this other ticket. Why I ever bought it I cannot imagine.’

Harsh discussion on a message board isn't going to make the difference in whether or not he's salvaged. And yes Treliving does get the blame IMO. How could he not??? He signed Neal to a deal that i have trouble believing any team not in alberta would offer. It's a bad move, pretending Neal is magically going to get better is Brouwer-esque.

[Ped]

I have no problem criticizing Neal for his play, but to blame Treliving is nothing more than hindsight imo. The signing was widely praised across the league as Neal was seen as a consistent 20-goal guy (because he was).


As aarongavey pointed out, there were signs of a decline but nothing like what we've seen.

[Phagoof]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Important to remember Neal is signed for 4 years.

His current play is crap and he probably deserves to be benched if you are trying your hardest to win in the very near future. But, since he is signed for 4 more years, it makes sense to try your damndest best to get him going. Suffer a bit now, reap rewards for 4 more years in the future.

You can wish all you want that we didn't sign him, but that's not reality. Gotta work with what you have. I doubt management wants to buy him out after this year, so management should absolutely try their best to make a fit for him. Until Neal gets to a point where he is complete trash and worthy of a permanent benching / buyout, that is the most rational thing to do.

And what determines that? He's already not producing and he's costing the team in the defensive side of the game.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Ped

I have no problem criticizing Neal for his play, but to blame Treliving is nothing more than hindsight imo. The signing was widely praised across the league as Neal was seen as a consistent 20-goal guy (because he was).


As aarongavey pointed out, there were signs of a decline but nothing like what we've seen.

It was praised by analysts who are paid to hype up free agency. If the other 30 gms are praising the signing, then that goes to show how bad it was. They are our competition after all.

[SeanCharles]

Treliving does deserve some criticism here.

Hes made the same mistake in free agency three times in a row now.

The worst part is it went from a 3 year deal to a 4 year deal and now to a 5 year deal.

I didn't come here to say I knew they were all mistakes right from the moment I heard about them but in all honesty I did.

I hated the Raymond signing, I hated the Brouwer signing and I hated the Neal signing.

But to be fair I hated the Neal signing because I didn't like the term.

I figured he would be good for us for 2-3 years and be an anchor in years 4-5.

Treliving has done a wonderful job re-signing RFA's, the majority of his trades are in our favor and his drafting has been quite good.

His work in UFA however is less than stellar.

Engelland and Frolik are really the only ones that I would say are wins. Versteeg and Hiller weren't terrible as they both had one good season and the rest are bad or mediocre.

Treliving himself has come out and said GMs tend to make mistakes on July 1.. He says this but continues to sign anchors.

To be fair Neal has a great track record and was a top 6 forward so I can understand the interest. Raymond and Brouwer were always what I would call 3rd liners so signing them never sat well with me.

I still love Tre as our GM and wouldn't think of firing him though.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Ped

I have no problem criticizing Neal for his play, but to blame Treliving is nothing more than hindsight imo. The signing was widely praised across the league as Neal was seen as a consistent 20-goal guy (because he was).


As aarongavey pointed out, there were signs of a decline but nothing like what we've seen.

How was Neal a 20 goal scorer? Top 6 minutes and PP time. Without those the same level of productivity should not be expected.

Not saying he should be gifted that time. Lindholm is clearly a better player.

He is getting shots and shooting percentage should normalize somewhat. But unless deployment changes don’t expect a ton.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

How was Neal a 20 goal scorer? Top 6 minutes and PP time. Without those the same level of productivity should not be expected.

Not saying he should be gifted that time. Lindholm is clearly a better player.

He is getting shots and shooting percentage should normalize somewhat. But unless deployment changes don’t expect a ton.

In Vegas he was on the 2nd line and 2nd PP unit.

In Calgary he's been getting 17mins a night and 2nd PP unit duties. So outside of who his linemates are his deployment is pretty much the same.

The problem seems to be chemistry as he doesn't look to have much with many of our players.

Hes played with pretty much everybody on the team.

I do agree with you to a certain extent because I've only really been happy with 6 of our forwards this year. The guys who currently play in the top 6 have all been good as even when Bennett and Backlund don't contribute offense they add other intangibles to every game.

Neal playing with below average offensive players probably hasn't helped because he needs a playmaker on his line to be successful.

Problem is the coach has the right guys in the top 6 so until we can put together a legitimate 3rd line depth scoring is going to be an issue.

I don't think any of Jankowski, Ryan, Frolik, Czarnik, Hathaway, Lomberg or any of the other guys in and out of the lineup are overly strong offensively so we may need to add come trade deadline time.

I guess what I'm saying is top 6 vs top 9 doesn't overly matter all that much if the chemistry is there as well as skill up and down the lineup. TB's regular 3rd line each have 9 goals and Killorn has more points than all of our forwards outside of the top 4.

I know it's not the best team to draw comparisons to but they have more legit top 6 forwards than we do legit top 9 so I agree that Neal probably hasn't been put in a situation to succeed..

That's mostly because he doesn't fit with Tkachuk and Backlund, the top line is dynamite and the rest of our bottom 6 isn't good enough offensively.

[Mightyfire89]

It’s certainly fair to criticize James Neal’s performance so far this season at this point and by extension, Brad Treliving’s decision to sign him.

He has looked mostly terrible. Seemingly lazy, uninterested in competing and shooting about as well as I could.

I will say that I voted “love it” without qualification. It seemed a logical signing at the time to me.

Goes to show...What the hell do I know?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Ped

I have no problem criticizing Neal for his play, but to blame Treliving is nothing more than hindsight imo. The signing was widely praised across the league as Neal was seen as a consistent 20-goal guy (because he was).


As aarongavey pointed out, there were signs of a decline but nothing like what we've seen.

But it’s the GM’s job to forecast how well his players will do here. That’s why he and his braintrust get paid what they get paid, to research, to scout and to forecast. UFA signings tend to be the worst decisions a GM can make because of the sheer risk of the decision, the dollar value and term of a contract can be killers.

So yes, all GM’s including Tre should receive their fair share of criticism especially because we’ve so many of these as Flames fans over the years. Those who say that Tre should lock up his phone or whatever on July 1st are basically making a veiled insult at his performance on free agenct frenzy.

I also don’t think Neal has just suddenly fallen off a cliff after 10 strong seasons. He’s always been an average skater and has never been known for his strong defensive play. I just think management has badly misinterpreted how Neal’s game and how Brouwer’s game would translate on this team.

The strength of this team is in its ability to score on the rush and I’m not sure that’s in Neal or even Brouwer’s dna. It’s up to Treliving to fix this situation, so we’ll just have to wait and see how he remedies this situation.

[TheScorpion]

At least Neal has intangible value to a fair number of teams. I bet Vegas would trade for him, especially if his production increases a little. It's just so weird watching him out there, he's a staggeringly poor fit.

[dirk diggler]

Why would Vegas trade for him? they likley could have offered less and signed him in the offseason before he turned into Brouwer?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Ped

I have no problem criticizing Neal for his play, but to blame Treliving is nothing more than hindsight imo. The signing was widely praised across the league as Neal was seen as a consistent 20-goal guy (because he was).


As aarongavey pointed out, there were signs of a decline but nothing like what we've seen.

Neal almost obviously signed in Calgary as a last resort because no one else was willing to pay him the salary and term he expected, including the team he played for the year prior.

If that's not a red flag I don't know what is. We didn't "win the James Neal sweepstakes" the way Toronto won the John Tavares sweepstakes. We were just one of the few teams irresponsible enough to sign Neal.

Tre signing a winger who isn't a true top line player or a strong passer, and needs a good center to produce goals... we've seen that story annually. It's okay to admit Tre's faults.

Personally I do think Neal could be somewhat salvaged if we move Bennett to 3C and Neal to the right on PP2. Ryan's lack of size and Jankowski's lack of pace have had the worst impact on Neal at 3RW, and Neal simply isn't getting shots on our powerplay which renders him useless.

Then add another winger with some pace at LW, either Frolik, Czarnik or Quine. Or go all-in on Panarin.

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Neal almost obviously signed in Calgary as a last resort because no one else was willing to pay him the salary and term he expected, including the team he played for the year prior.

If that's not a red flag I don't know what is. We didn't "win the James Neal sweepstakes" the way Toronto won the John Tavares sweepstakes. We were just one of the few teams irresponsible enough to sign Neal.

Tre signing a winger who isn't a true top line player or a strong passer, and needs a good center to produce goals... we've seen that story annually. It's okay to admit Tre's faults.

Personally I do think Neal could be somewhat salvaged if we move Bennett to 3C and Neal to the right on PP2. Ryan's lack of size and Jankowski's lack of pace have had the worst impact on Neal at 3RW, and Neal simply isn't getting shots on our powerplay which renders him useless.

Then add another winger with some pace at LW, either Frolik, Czarnik or Quine. Or go all-in on Panarin.

Bennett played a fantastic game the other night and is much more noticeable than Neal. this would be a bad message to send to players who are working hard. Neal hasnt earned anything and thus he shouldnt be given extra, this isnt the Oilers

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

By the way, I don't see Treliving coming under any heat at all for this. Right wing was a disaster area for the team in recent years, so he moved to address it. Nobody could have foreseen that Lindholm would blow away all his personal scoring records and make himself a fixture on the top line. Because of that, there simply isn't a legitimate spot for Neal in the lineup.

I'm not going to say that I called Lindholm being a PPG 'best contract in the league' type player, but it was clear as soon as the trade happened that Lindholm was the most talented player to ever play with Gaudreau and Monahan. And those two don't need you to be Peter Forsberg to ruin teams.

Lindholm > Hudler, and we saw what Hudler did when those two weren't nearly as good as they are now.

Lindholm being awesome is probably the most predictable move of the off-season.