Russia invades Ukraine

[FlamesAddiction]

I feel like people are giving ISIS too much credit here, as if their acts of terrorism have much thought behind them, other than just killing as many people as possible and trying to gain power over civilians through fear.

It's not specifically a Russia thing. Here is a list of countries that have been victims of terrorism by ISIS since 2013:

Iraq
Philippines
Afghanistan
Egypt
Pakistan
Syria
Turkey
Sri Lanka
Russia
France
Yemen
Niger
Libya
Tunisia
USA
Iran
Lebanon
Belgium
Saudi Arabia
Indonesia
United Kingdom
Bangladesh
Kuwait
Tajikistan
Jordan
Spain
Burkina Faso
Germany
Nigeria
Pakistan
Kazakhstan
Sweden
Australia
Benin
Austria
Canada
Israel
Denmark
New Zealand
Mozambique
The Democratic Republic of Congo
Malaysia
India

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by GGG

This is the similar gross argument used to justify Israel’s killing of civilians. You don’t get to blame civilians for not doing something.

It's a reaction that's been repeated for decades in the west. Japanese internment camps for Japanese Americans because of Japan's government actions. Islamophobia (or more accurately, Brown person phobia, given attacks on Sikhs at the time who have nothing to be with Islam) after 9/11. Random assaults on anyone Asian because people in the west don't realize that not all Asians are Chinese, besides the point that assaulting random Chinese people because of covid is idiotic. And then the boycotting of Russian-owned businesses because... Their heritage is Russian. Believe people when they show you who they are. And then in this thread itself, suggesting that giving arms to terrorist groups to kill more civilians in Russia is good just because.

[Cheese]

BREAKING:

Ukrainian Storm Shadow cruise missiles hit and destroyed two 112 meter long large Ropucha-class landing ships in Crimea last night!

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/statu...oiGQVZ6wg&s=19

https://twitter.com/Heroiam_Slava/st...6pxLueHBQ&s=19

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/...B-bShWHYQ&s=19

Overnight, French and British Storm Shadow missiles in the hands of well practiced Ukrainians rained over Russian Crimea destroying a variety of Russian garbage.

- 2 Russian ships (Azov and Yamal)
- 2 Su-27 jets
- Russian communications hub
- oil infrastructure
- a military base, eliminating 40 Russians

https://twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status...iH3q5ioEA&s=19

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Ya I just fundamentally disagree. Society deserves its share of blame for the government it puts in place. I’m not saying they deserve to die, but it is incumbent on them to fix it.

Let’s see your view on this topic if this unfolds into nuclear war. The old hands up “whelp! We just couldn’t do anything!” Isn’t good enough for me. Maybe WW2 could have been avoided had the normal folks stepped in and stopped the extremism, but then again, maybe there just wasn’t enough normal folks around? And that’s the point.

It's debatable whether the government and leadership of a country acts the way it does because it's a reflection or function of the mindset of the people. I don't think the answer is straight forward or a one-size fits all. I think it depends on a lot of factors, like how small and homogenous the population is, and how fanatical or nationalistic they are. There are some situations where I would say civilians are complicate in their government's actions, but there isn't an easy way to tell IMO. I suspect Russia is pretty complicated in this regard.

[Sluggo]

I would guess its an extensional paranoia from being invaded by continental powers for a millennia+... So the social contract between Russians and their leaders is to not let the neighbors invade and do medieval stuff to us and we wont care so much if you limit our freedoms a 'tiny' bit. Problem is when you are thinking/worrying about terrors being done onto yourself you tend to do the same to any threats.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Sluggo

I would guess its an extensional paranoia from being invaded by continental powers for a millennia+... So the social contract between Russians and their leaders is to not let the neighbors invade and do medieval stuff to us and we wont care so much if you limit our freedoms a 'tiny' bit. Problem is when you are thinking/worrying about terrors being done onto yourself you tend to do the same to any threats.

I suspect you are right and this is a big part of the mentality. I also think that the old guard folks in Russia saw this mentality changing and saw it as a threat to their power. Ukrainians in particular, because they share some history with Russia, but were overwhelmingly starting to look West. If Russians started to look West, it would challenge that social contract.

In other news, a Russian cruise missile entered Polish airspace for 39 seconds.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/russia-...tems.%E2%80%9D

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Ya I just fundamentally disagree. Society deserves its share of blame for the government it puts in place. I’m not saying they deserve to die, but it is incumbent on them to fix it.

Let’s see your view on this topic if this unfolds into nuclear war. The old hands up “whelp! We just couldn’t do anything!” Isn’t good enough for me. Maybe WW2 could have been avoided had the normal folks stepped in and stopped the extremism, but then again, maybe there just wasn’t enough normal folks around? And that’s the point.

I guess it's easy for you to say that if you're someone who lives in a country where you never have to put the things that mean the most to you, including your life, at risk to take action against the government...

Let me ask you this, is the "entire USA" at fault for the Trump presidency and everything he did during it? Are all Russians at fault for Putin's thuggery? All Israelis for Netenyahu's thuggery? All Palestinians for Hamas'? etc.

[Badgers Nose]

nvm

[Harry Lime]

Where was all of this existential angst during the women's revolution in Iran? They were begging for any kind of internal or external support, and barely got airtime on the news in the west.

We live in a time when revolution is incited internally, but requires buffering from without to succeed. The Palestinians would be nothing but a memory if not for Iran and Qatar support (and left wing westerners) . If Russians stood up to putin, they probably feel isolated and instead do nothing. Complicity or weakness or fear? Who knows.

I have to stop rambling on work breaks.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I feel like people are giving ISIS too much credit here, as if their acts of terrorism have much thought behind them, other than just killing as many people as possible and trying to gain power over civilians through fear.

It's not specifically a Russia thing. Here is a list of countries that have been victims of terrorism by ISIS since 2013:

Iraq
Philippines
Afghanistan
Egypt
Pakistan
Syria
Turkey
Sri Lanka
Russia
France
Yemen
Niger
Libya
Tunisia
USA
Iran
Lebanon
Belgium
Saudi Arabia
Indonesia
United Kingdom
Bangladesh
Kuwait
Tajikistan
Jordan
Spain
Burkina Faso
Germany
Nigeria
Pakistan
Kazakhstan
Sweden
Australia
Benin
Austria
Canada
Israel
Denmark
New Zealand
Mozambique
The Democratic Republic of Congo
Malaysia
India

There is sometimes (often?) quite a lot of thought behind terrorist attacks. What ISIS is doing makes sense to them.

As for the relationship between atrocities/war crimes and terrorism;
It's to be expected that atrocities and war crimes create violent extremism. It's also to be expected that violent extremists then commit more atrocities. The line from Syria to Moscow isn't straight, but that doesn't mean there's no connection.

That said, I would agree that there isn't much point in trying to rationalize ISIS targets. Even if there is a logical connection that makes sense to ISIS, it doesn't justify the attacks, or make them somehow predictable.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Ya I just fundamentally disagree. Society deserves its share of blame for the government it puts in place. I’m not saying they deserve to die, but it is incumbent on them to fix it.

Let’s see your view on this topic if this unfolds into nuclear war. The old hands up “whelp! We just couldn’t do anything!” Isn’t good enough for me. Maybe WW2 could have been avoided had the normal folks stepped in and stopped the extremism, but then again, maybe there just wasn’t enough normal folks around? And that’s the point.

Essentially you are arguing that Russian civilians should be killed by Putin.

Thats what you are asking people to do. Are you willing to sacrifice yourself your life to save lives in the Ukraine?

[Harry Lime]

To save the lives of young Russian men who are being slaughtered in Ukraine?

I mean, I'm not against opening the borders to a million Russian women refugees, looking for mates because all of the Russian men died on the front, but it seems selfish.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by GGG

Essentially you are arguing that Russian civilians should be killed by Putin.

Thats what you are asking people to do. Are you willing to sacrifice yourself your life to save lives in the Ukraine?

Decent points. I’m not really sure what I’m saying is controversial though. Russia is every bit as terroristy as ISIS these days.

To what extent do you absolve a society of blame for its government?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Decent points. I’m not really sure what I’m saying is controversial though. Russia is every bit as terroristy as ISIS these days.

To what extent do you absolve a society of blame for its government?

It’s possible that overthrowing a violent oppressive dictator isn’t as easy as some people living in democratic countries think it is.

[The Fonz]

Jesus, smarten up. It’s ####ing disgusting that 100+ Russians were gunned down at a concert - it doesn’t matter what atrocities their “elected” government has committed. These are innocent people at a concert, there’s no “ya but they deserved it”.

Pretty damn gross position to take that these particular people gunned down, should have stood up to the KGB. Mr Coffee, what have you personally done to prevent the Canadian government from committing heinous crime?

Despite the fact you’ve done nothing, I won’t for one second consider it alright for you or your family to be gunned down at the next live venue you attend. That would be evil and inhumane.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Decent points. I’m not really sure what I’m saying is controversial though. Russia is every bit as terroristy as ISIS these days.

To what extent do you absolve a society of blame for its government?

Almost entirely.

Even in a democracy people don’t have real foreign policy choices. At least we can protest without getting shot though. Like the Canadian government has failed in providing adequate drinking water to reserves. I do nothing. We have inadequate supports for people with addictions. I do nothing. This results in unnecessary death that could be prevented by government. How culpable am I when I would face no consequence for trying to initiate change.

So then you look at Russia where they have been in a dictatorship with lethal consequences for being outspoken. So I don’t think I can have any expectation for them to sacrifice themselves to save others.

I think you can only judge an individual on their actions, the moment they start shooting they are now a legitimate target. Though I still feel some empathy as the front lines are filled with many who are not making a free choice.

[activeStick]

N/m not 100% sure...

[Mr.Coffee]

Just so we’re clear you guys also feel quite sorry for the people in Islamic states then that prop up ISIS, correct? This isn’t some gotcha I’m just trying to figure out the line for you guys. Like at some point, I’m sorry, people are responsible for propping up terrorist organizations. You say almost not at all, I say- mmm… more of a medium position.

Also Fonz you should maybe read a little better, I never said they deserved to die or any of that crap so stop making #### up.

[Manhattanboy]

In the context of the recent Russian “election” I was wondering how much of this is driven by Putin alone. Is he obsessed with Ukraine the way Hitler was obsessed?

If Putin was killed tomorrow would there be a fundamental shift in Russian policy that could result in a quick end to the war and stability in Europe?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

In the context of the recent Russian “election” I was wondering how much of this is driven by Putin alone. Is he obsessed with Ukraine the way Hitler was obsessed?

If Putin was killed tomorrow would there be a fundamental shift in Russian policy that could result in a quick end to the war and stability in Europe?

No because in many ways Putins no different than every Russian ruler for 300 years, they are both jealous and insecure of the west, they see it as their right to be rich powerful and respected like France/Great Britain/Germany/United States whilst being barely able to farm pigs effectively, they also fear invasion from the west (their inability to run a functioning modern economy tends to limit their thinking to a 1940's level of strategic thought, the idea that what actually makes them weak is their inability to make a car or TV that works doesn't occur to them) but this fear of invasion leads them to the strategic assumption they need to control out to the Carpathians and Warsaw in order to shorten their lines of defense while giving them room to retreat as they did in 1812, 1914 and 1940