2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I don't disagree about the number of people suggesting left-shooting players, but right shot RW like those we're looking for are a rarity.

If none are available at a price we can pay, is it that much of a reach to try a left shooting player in that spot?

There are several examples of great players playing RW who shoot left.

Though it begs the question, has Hoffman (for example) ever played RW?

I agree with you about our depth chart on LW if not.

I just don't see the point in using assets, regardless of which ones, to acquire a LS player to play RW when they have so many right now. Especially Bennett being wasted on the third line. I get that there has been a lot of chatter about him here on these boards, but trading assets to move a LW to RW seems like such a Habs thing to do.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

I just don't see the point in using assets, regardless of which ones, to acquire a LS player to play RW when they have so many right now. Especially Bennett being wasted on the third line. I get that there has been a lot of chatter about him here on these boards, but trading assets to move a LW to RW seems like such a Habs thing to do.

I have no idea if Hoffman can play RW but he's certainly head and shoulders above Bennett as an option to move to the right side.

I'm not advocating for him specifically, I'm just saying just because someone shoot's left doesn't mean they can't play RW. There are a lot of people clamouring for someone like James Neal, who's had a lot of success playing the right side despite being a left shot.

I'd rather see a right shot RW as well. Just not sure who's available that upgrades our top six that shoots right. If there's a deal that makes sense to bring in a player that shoots left who's a clear upgrade and a scoring threat, I'm just not sure it makes sense to shut the door on that.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I don't disagree about the number of people suggesting left-shooting players, but right shot RW like those we're looking for are a rarity.

If none are available at a price we can pay, is it that much of a reach to try a left shooting player in that spot?

It is, and it's not about LW vs RW. It's about the fact that we have too much overlapping skillset in our top 9. If you made a list of our best forwards, that list would consist of

Gaudreau
Tkachuk
Monahan
Ferland
Backlund
Bennett
Jankowski
Frolik

And every single on of those players is a left hand shot. The reason some of the players further down that list have very weak power play numbers is because there is simply no role for them. Acquiring more LHSs just cannibalizes the role further.

It really isn't about us needing a RHS RW. It's about us needing a RHS top 6 forward - LW, C, or RW. That's the kind of player who can fill a niche that is not currently filled by the eight best players we have.

Let's consider the Capitals PP. Now You have Ovechkin planted in his spot, That's already something we lack. But now consider this, if you simply took their PP and:


Replaced Backstrom / Kuznetsov with Gaudreau / Tkachuk in the same sort of roles (right side, a lot of cycle action near the goal line), you'd actually STILL have a less effective power play because by replacing Oshie with Monahan, those two playmakers on the right have to pass ACROSS Monahan for the one-timer, whereas Kuznetsov can pass from Oshie's right.

On our power play, the solution is to have Gaudreau play on the left where he isn't a goal scoring threat. This allows him to pass from Monahan's left to a quick snap shot or whatever Monahan wants to do. Our PP is setup to set up Monahan, but it simultaneously neuters Gaudreau's options in the process.

Ideally, would be to have a right hand shot skilled forward on the right side of Monahan, who can still one-time a Gaudreau cross-seam pass from the far side, but also set Monahan up for that quick shot in the slot.

There are of course a hundred different ways to skill the cat but if you have ten of the same knife you're not going to be touching on enough options. That's our issue. We have some pretty skilled players in Backlund, Bennett, and Jankowski who are already wasting their skill because of the homogeneity of our roster.

The lack of balance is a much bigger issue for us than whether a player is a left wing or a right wing or a center. All our right hand shot forwards are low skill guys like Lazar.

Hoffman is a skilled player, but he doesn't possess any skill that isn't already on our roster. Ferland has a cannon. So doe Monahan. Tkachuk is a legit playmaker as is Gaudreau. Backlund and Bennett are both highly skilled. Jankowski too has a cannon. What allows Hoffman to be successful in Ottawa is that his skillset is more unique there among a group of guys like Stone and Ryan and formerly Turris. It's not here, and that's why he would be a poor acquisition.

Top offensive teams do have that shot balance because it gives them a ton of options. Loading up on LHSs would be like loading up on 20 goal scorers in the Darryl Sutter era - just because they were 20 goal scorers at some point in some locale didn't mean they could all be 20 goal scorers on the same team.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I have no idea if Hoffman can play RW but he's certainly head and shoulders above Bennett as an option to move to the right side.

I'm not advocating for him specifically, I'm just saying just because someone shoot's left doesn't mean they can't play RW. There are a lot of people clamouring for someone like James Neal, who's had a lot of success playing the right side despite being a left shot.

I'd rather see a right shot RW as well. Just not sure who's available that upgrades our top six that shoots right. If there's a deal that makes sense to bring in a player that shoots left who's a clear upgrade and a scoring threat, I'm just not sure it makes sense to shut the door on that.

That's just it, there isn't. The UFA list is full of LS players. I get that Hoffman is legit, but he's been doing it on the left side. I don't think it's wise to acquire a player just to move him to a new position. It changes what you are getting, and there's nowhere to play him at LW. I don't have the answer, I just don't like it.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

It really isn't about us needing a RHS RW. It's about us needing a RHS top 6 forward - LW, C, or RW. That's the kind of player who can fill a niche that is not currently filled by the eight best players we have.

I don't think so as much as I think it's about us needing to ad skill and scoring.

I don't disagree with you about how dire the need is for a right shot.

But we hear a lot of talk about names like Tavares, RoR, etc, both left shots.

This team is in desperate need of more impactful skill in our top nine above all else.

I'd like to see that be a right handed shot as well... but as I mentioned earlier, as impactful players, they're hard to come by.

If we don't find someone who shoots right that's a clear upgrade in our top six / nine, are you of the opinion we stand pat?

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

The problem with the Hoffman idea is that he's still a LH LW and the Flames already have Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Bennett, Ferland, Frolik... that all fit that mold. On top of that, the UFA market is full of LH LW that can be had for no assets other than cash. I hope Tree isn't going to trade for a redundant piece unless he has something else up his sleeve.

Sens fans have stated he played a fair bit of RW in Ottawa.

One thing he brings to the table is speed. He also has a fairly lethal shot and we need a sniper.

I would love to make a move for him with Stone as part of the return. I just wouldn’t want to include one of the top 4 D prospects to get the deal done. A Brodie 1 for 1 swap makes more sense. If we could trade Stone+Mangiapane though that would be fantastic. It would still allow the Flames to consider a Brodie or Hamilton trade to add another high end forward.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I don't think so as much as I think it's about us needing to ad skill and scoring.

I don't disagree with you about how dire the need is for a right shot.

But we hear a lot of talk about names like Tavares, RoR, etc, both left shots.

I also think ROR would be a terrible acquisition.

Tavares is a different situation because of this: He's a better hockey player than Sean Monahan and actually allows us to consider trading Sean Monahan for a RHS, or perhaps someone else like Jankowski. I don't believe for one second John Tavares and Sean Monahan would co-exist well (at least not insofar as Monahan could produce better than a 55 point-ish 2C if we acquired Tavares), because they're actually pretty similar in terms of the areas they like, the kind of speed they bring (or don't), and the fact that they're both LHS. I do think Tavares is better than Monahan though, and I would be willing to trade Monahan if we acquired Tavares.

If we don't find someone who shoots right that's a clear upgrade in our top six / nine, are you of the opinion we stand pat?

I would say that standing pat isn't the worst option in the world. For starters I would like to see if Dougie Hamilton can play a more efficient role on our power play beyond volume shooter from the right side.

Second I strongly need to see if Tkachuk and Bennett can show some chemistry. Bennett possesses high end skill and if Tkachuk can dust that diamond off, we suddenly have a 2C and a 2nd line.

Third if Phillips or Foo can help our power play, that'd already be a huge upgrade. I believe Bennett has more to show.

Overall, though, I do want the team to go after someone. but going after Tier II and III lhs players without any consideration as to whether they could reproduce what they are doing there - so ROR, Hoffman, etc would be a huge mistake barring a lopsided no-brainer acquisition cost (i.e. Klimchuk for Hoffman). Tier II and III players should be RHS. You should never turn down an opportunity to acquire a Tier I player like Tavares though.

[Vinny01]

I think Monahan and Tavares could coexist rather easily and seamlessly. The Flames would have the ability to pair Tkachuk with Tavares and build a true number 1 line. Monahan and Gaudreau stay together and are spoon fed o zone starts andblikey play weaker competition as Tavares-Tkachuk takes the tough matchups. Backlund-Frolik are buried in the D-zone and play the tough minutes.

If the Flames added Tavares in the summer one of the last moves they should make is trading Monahan in my opinion. Have that elite centre depth and spread out scoring.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Yeah, look at what happened with Barzal and Eberle when Tavares was taking the attention of the opponents top shutdown players.

Tkachuk-Tavares-XXX
Gaudreau-Monahan-XXX

It would be pick your poison for the opposition.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I also think ROR would be a terrible acquisition.

Tavares is a different situation because of this: He's a better hockey player than Sean Monahan and actually allows us to consider trading Sean Monahan for a RHS, or perhaps someone else like Jankowski. I don't believe for one second John Tavares and Sean Monahan would co-exist well (at least not insofar as Monahan could produce better than a 55 point-ish 2C if we acquired Tavares), because they're actually pretty similar in terms of the areas they like, the kind of speed they bring (or don't), and the fact that they're both LHS. I do think Tavares is better than Monahan though, and I would be willing to trade Monahan if we acquired Tavares.




I would say that standing pat isn't the worst option in the world. For starters I would like to see if Dougie Hamilton can play a more efficient role on our power play beyond volume shooter from the right side.

Second I strongly need to see if Tkachuk and Bennett can show some chemistry. Bennett possesses high end skill and if Tkachuk can dust that diamond off, we suddenly have a 2C and a 2nd line.

Third if Phillips or Foo can help our power play, that'd already be a huge upgrade. I believe Bennett has more to show.

Overall, though, I do want the team to go after someone. but going after Tier II and III lhs players without any consideration as to whether they could reproduce what they are doing there - so ROR, Hoffman, etc would be a huge mistake barring a lopsided no-brainer acquisition cost (i.e. Klimchuk for Hoffman). Tier II and III players should be RHS. You should never turn down an opportunity to acquire a Tier I player like Tavares though.

I'm not following the Tavares and Monahan can't co-exist logic. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm saying Monahan should be untouchable, and more than open to moving him to improve the team, especially if we already upgrade him with Tavares, but I'm not sure I get why he can't co-exist with Tavares.

The two LHS argument is pretty irrelevant IMO, given they won't play on the same line together. Understood that's two top 6 forwards with LHS, but does that really matter?

Your other argument seems to be you don't think Monahan can produce on the 2nd line. I don't share your concern, but it's not ridiculous to call into question what will his production be. I don't think Mony is at all reliant on Johnny to be a good contributor, but essentially what you are saying, by saying he can't put up 55 points on the second line is that Monahan isn't a top 6 forward in this league, and he's being propped up by his line mates (I'm sure namely Johnny). Do you actually believe Monahan is a bottom 6 forward in the NHL? I think he's a young center in this league that is currently a 1b or 2a center at this point. I don't see why we Tavares and him couldn't co-exist and why that would be bad for the Flames. Tavares is a legit 1a in this league, and all of a sudden we'd have a 1b or 2a playing on the second line. Sounds pretty good to me.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I also think ROR would be a terrible acquisition.

Tavares is a different situation because of this: He's a better hockey player than Sean Monahan and actually allows us to consider trading Sean Monahan for a RHS, or perhaps someone else like Jankowski.

I disagree that signing Tavares means you need to trade Monahan. Tavares is the better player but I'm not sure we are a much better team if we just were to do a straight swap of Monahan with Tavares - especially 2-3 years from now.

Monahan - 24 years old - Cap Hit:$6.375M

G: 85
P: 185
PPG: 0.8

Tavares - 28 years old - Cap Hit: ~$10M

G: 98
P: 220
PPG: 0.93

So with Tavares you are getting 5 more goals and 10 more points per season on Average which is a good jump but you're also likely spending $4-5M more per season for that and have a guy who is 4 years older and closer to declining.

If you bring in Tavares you need to keep Monahan to give you that 1-2 punch, or else you're minimally upgrading since you need to get rid of a different $4M somewhere else.

Although kind of get what you mean though since Tavares comes in without spending assets - so you could then trade Monahan for a different type of center. So you'd sign Tavares and then trade Monahan for a similar aged, point producing RH C.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Last 3 years, Monahan's 85 goals ranks in the top 10 for centers. His 185 points ranks in the top 15.

I think you're even underrating him calling him a 1b. He may not be an elite number center like Crosby, Malkin or McDavid, but he's a number 1 center without needing to qualify it.

[GranteedEV]

To clarify: I don't think signing Tavares means you "need" to trade Monahan. I am saying that Monahan's skillset is made redundant by Tavares and it would cause Monahan to have less production overall (down to the ~55 ish point range).


I think it's fantasy to think Monahan and Tavares would both be 70 point guys on the same team. The only areas Tavares likes that aren't exactly the same as Monahan are the ones Gaudreau likes.

[Roof-Daddy]

If you (are lucky enough to) sign Tavares, you keep Monahan.

You also keep Backlund.

What the hell? Are some Flames fans afraid to actually having legitimate cup contending center depth or something?

Probably the same types who though the Pens should have traded Malkin 5 or 6 years ago.

If I had it my way, the Flames roster would consist of 12 centers with 8 of them playing wing.

LOL

Does Team Canada stop picking centers after they have 4 or 5?

No.

They keep adding them and put some of them on the wings.

Good grief.

[Geeoff]

If you look at Stanley Cup winners in history, the majority of them have 2 number 1 centres.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Barzal just put up 85 points in his rookie year behind Tavares, assuming Gaudreau/Tkachuk played with Monahan and he wasn't stuck with some chump like Brouwer, I don't see a reason he would drop down below 55 points. If anything, it gives him breathing room. More time against second pairing and second PK unit. I think his points increases.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

To clarify: I don't think signing Tavares means you "need" to trade Monahan. I am saying that Monahan's skillset is made redundant by Tavares and it would cause Monahan to have less production overall (down to the ~55 ish point range).


I think it's fantasy to think Monahan and Tavares would both be 70 point guys on the same team. The only areas Tavares likes that aren't exactly the same as Monahan are the ones Gaudreau likes.

I think they could both be 65-70 point Cs - why couldn't they? They actually have really similar 5v5 production which isn't as likely to be impacted in a negative way by adding Tavares (especially if you pair Gaudreau/Monahan, and Tkachuk/Tavares).

Last three seasons at 5v5:

Monahan

G: 51 P: 110

Tavares:
G: 55 P: 120

And even though they prefer the same areas on the PP I doubt that our PP gets worse by adding a second player that can be an elite finisher but is also great with the puck on his stick.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Second I strongly need to see if Tkachuk and Bennett can show some chemistry. Bennett possesses high end skill and if Tkachuk can dust that diamond off, we suddenly have a 2C and a 2nd line.

This is what I was hoping for all last year. Bennett is a center and was drafted to play there. Lazar is a RHS with speed and grit and was traded and protected to use those skills. Imagine if they could actually do it together!!!

Tkachuk - Bennett - Lazar

I think Tkachuk is the guy to get that going.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I also think ROR would be a terrible acquisition.

Tavares is a different situation because of this: He's a better hockey player than Sean Monahan and actually allows us to consider trading Sean Monahan for a RHS, or perhaps someone else like Jankowski. I don't believe for one second John Tavares and Sean Monahan would co-exist well (at least not insofar as Monahan could produce better than a 55 point-ish 2C if we acquired Tavares), because they're actually pretty similar in terms of the areas they like, the kind of speed they bring (or don't), and the fact that they're both LHS. I do think Tavares is better than Monahan though, and I would be willing to trade Monahan if we acquired Tavares.




I would say that standing pat isn't the worst option in the world. For starters I would like to see if Dougie Hamilton can play a more efficient role on our power play beyond volume shooter from the right side.

Second I strongly need to see if Tkachuk and Bennett can show some chemistry. Bennett possesses high end skill and if Tkachuk can dust that diamond off, we suddenly have a 2C and a 2nd line.

Third if Phillips or Foo can help our power play, that'd already be a huge upgrade. I believe Bennett has more to show.

Overall, though, I do want the team to go after someone. but going after Tier II and III lhs players without any consideration as to whether they could reproduce what they are doing there - so ROR, Hoffman, etc would be a huge mistake barring a lopsided no-brainer acquisition cost (i.e. Klimchuk for Hoffman). Tier II and III players should be RHS. You should never turn down an opportunity to acquire a Tier I player like Tavares though.

For me it really comes down to (A) does a potential target significantly upgrade our top six and (B) if so what is the acquisition cost.

Depending on those two answers, in my opinion, I'd be okay with it being a left handed shot.

Outside of this, I really have no interest on your take on specific player evaluations. I find you to be way too influenced by stats and rigid to the core about your opinions on them (having previously called Monahan a 2C etc).

I'd welcome RoR in a heartbeat. You don't like him. No problem. I don't suspect we'd see eye to eye on a lot of specific players and I'm fine with that.. but again, in my view I'm okay with adding another left shot if there are no suitable right shot options and the price is right.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

This is what I was hoping for all last year. Bennett is a center and was drafted to play there. Lazar is a RHS with speed and grit and was traded and protected to use those skills. Imagine if they could actually do it together!!!

Tkachuk - Bennett - Lazar

I think Tkachuk is the guy to get that going.

I dunno Lazar has a lot of hustle but his hands kinda suck. I'd hope we put Tkachuk with guys who can finish.

I'm not sure that the strategy for improving our bottom 6 is to put our 2nd or 3rd best forward there...