The Blue Jays: 2009 Season Thread

[flambers]

Originally Posted by PyramidsofMars

Let's Go Mets Go?

Yah, lets see this is a Jays thread...

[OzSome]

The Blue Jays should keep Halladay, get rid of JP, trade Wells and Rios for some good reliever and closer. Bring Snyder from the minor and some of the young guys who can play outfield. I am sure those guys will do a better job than Wells and Rios. Also, you might as well trade Scott Downs for a baseball card. The guy is a waste of skin.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by OzSome

The Blue Jays should keep Halladay, get rid of JP, trade Wells and Rios for some good reliever and closer. Bring Snyder from the minor and some of the young guys who can play outfield. I am sure those guys will do a better job than Wells and Rios. Also, you might as well trade Scott Downs for a baseball card. The guy is a waste of skin.

Wells is untradeable. We'd have to eat most of his contract in a trade.

Rios is not a bad player, I don't grasp why so many fans want to get rid of the guy.

As for Downs, yeesh, fans just can't stand a bad week.

[Sylvanfan]

Yeah, talk about fantasy.....

There are suggestions that Halladay has informed the Jays that come time for his next contract he wants to go somewhere that he'll get to make the playoffs. Easy enough to figure out that means he'll look somewhere other than Toronto.

Wells as has been mentioned won't be traded until that last 8.5 million bonus gets paid at the earliest and I think thats like January of next year. Even than there is a lot owed on that contract for what another team will get.

Rios, at his price would be fine as a center fielder. Fart by the end of the season he'll probably have a 280 average 17-20 home runs and 70 or more RBI. A decent defensive center fielder who gives you 800 to 850 OBPS costs that much money.

Downs has had a rough week, but he'd still be okay as a situational left hander. He's just struggled coming off the injury. Really Gaston should figure this out and mix up his closers until Downs gets his confidence back.

As for Ricciardi, yeah that guy talks too much. If I was Halladay I'd be a bit choked at how much of a spectacle Ricciardi has made this into. Halladay never went to the media and said trade me or I won't sign here. His idiot GM is the one who did it. If only he'd handled this situation like Halladay has.

[flambers]

Players that I could see get traded in the next 24 hours are as follows;

Scutaro, he is a pending UFA
Rolen, rumour is the Reds are interested
Downs is another name the rumour websites are mentioning...

[PyramidsofMars]

Originally Posted by flambers

Yah, lets see this is a Jays thread...

wow, really?

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by flambers

Rolen, rumour is the Reds are interested

Rumors have Encarnacion involved.

Yuck.

[Gozer]

If JP trades Rolen and not Doc I will never defend him again.

[Pagal4321]

Rolen is the Greatest Blue Jay Of All Time!!

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Wells is untradeable. We'd have to eat most of his contract in a trade.

Rios is not a bad player, I don't grasp why so many fans want to get rid of the guy.

As for Downs, yeesh, fans just can't stand a bad week.

Good post.

Here's a good link that discusses Wells/Rios: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/rios-wells

I've never understood why Rios gets so much heat. His contract is very reasonable for what he brings to the table. Basically what it comes down to is that Rios never panned out to be the superstar the Jays needed him to be. Instead he's a very good player. Last year you could almost argue he was playing at a superstar level - when you combine his batting, baserunning, and fielding he provided 5.5 wins above replacement, good for 20th among position players (for comparison's sake, Youkillis also was 5.5 WAR last season too).

I just hate hearing people bitch about how he "should" be a 30 home run guy. What the hell does that even mean? He is what he is. Even if he is only a 20 HR guy, surely those 45-50 2B's count for something.

[Gozer]

Rios irritates fans with boneheaded plays. Forgetting how many outs on the basepaths or stepping off 2nd because he thought he was already out - and those mistakes really stick out in fan's heads.

What doesn't stick out in fan's heads is he is our best defensive outfielder measured in range or arm strength, our best base-stealer, and above average with the bat. If he wasn't mis-cast into leading off or batting third then fans would be quite pleased with his offense and overall play.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by JayP

Good post.

I just hate hearing people bitch about how he "should" be a 30 home run guy. What the hell does that even mean? He is what he is. Even if he is only a 20 HR guy, surely those 45-50 2B's count for something.

Problem is Rios has a low average (.265), he is not producing RBI's (has 53 RBI's in 101 games).

As for Double's last time I checked he has 24 doubles in 101 games. which puts him on pace for ~ 35 and puts him 5th on his team.

In my opinion there is a reason why Gaston had Rios moved down in the batting order.... Allot more is expected from this guy.

This year the Offense has come from unlikely sources (Scutaro, Hill and Lind) and the 3rd and 4th hitters had terrible starts to the season

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by flambers

Problem is Rios has a low average (.265), he is not producing RBI's (has 53 RBI's in 101 games).

As for Double's last time I checked he has 24 doubles in 101 games. which puts him on pace for ~ 35 and puts him 5th on his team.

In my opinion there is a reason why Gaston had Rios moved down in the batting order.... Allot more is expected from this guy.

This year the Offense has come from unlikely sources (Scutaro, Hill and Lind) and the 3rd and 4th hitters had terrible starts to the season

Rios is a lousy fit anywhere in the top 5 of the order and we all wish he could fill a big hole that should be blamed that on having [expletive] Kevin Millar as our DH and a $25M [expletive] in CF.

Rios' strengths are not average or RBIs, that is a limitation of his game - but how many teams have their best defensive outfielder dominating batting average and RBIs?

Really, if we went into next year with Lind-Rios-Snider then I would consider the outfield to be solid - solid defensively, solid offensively, and cheap!

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Rios' strengths are not average or RBIs, that is a limitation of his game - but how many teams have their best defensive outfielder dominating batting average and RBIs?

Rios is a lousy fit anywhere in the top 5 of the order and we all wish he could fill a big hole that should be blamed that on having f$#@!ing Kevin Millar as our DH and a $25M functional ###### in CF.

Rios is paid to be allot more than just a defensive outfielder... that's the problem...

In my opinion if Rios is at his potential, they need to get rid of him and find an outfielder who can produce the big runs when they are needed.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Really, if we went into next year with Lind-Rios-Snider then I would consider the outfield to be solid - solid defensively, solid offensively, and cheap!

Never happen, the Jays are stuck with Wells in CF for a long time.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by flambers

In my opinion if Rios is at his potential, they need to get rid of him and find an outfielder who can produce the big runs when they are needed.

Please explain that.

Not every MLB player produces big runs when they are needed, a player's value is more than the sum of the numbers on the back of a baseball card.

In my opinion/perception an offense needs: players that get on base (1-2), a superstar (3) players that slug (4-5) and players that hit for average (6-7) and 8/9 are defensive specialists that have limited offense.

To me, Rios does a below average job of getting on base but seems perfect around the 6 spot*, driving in slow runners with hard hits and being on base (to steal or hit & run) for the bottom of the order. And for his salary I think he provides fine value in his roles (middle/bottom of the order and superior defender).
Even if you think Rios is the 8/9 type, tell me how we're going to get the superstar we're missing by trading him away?
Or should we just unload him for anything and hope for the best?

*edit: and that's assuming he doesn't improve his offense, which he may with Gene and Cito. Rios was in the home run derby last year, he has potential to have a superstar season or two (though I doubt he will ever develop into a consistent superstar)

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by flambers

Never happen, the Jays are stuck with Wells in CF for a long time.

The Jays are stuck with Wells. Nothing says he can't sit his ass on the bench next year. His trade value is already shot to hell.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Gozer

The Jays are stuck with Wells. Nothing says he can't sit his ass on the bench next year. His trade value is already shot to hell.

The Jays will never sit a $20M dollar player... Wells will play almost everyday and will be the main guy in CF.

Fans have to hope, this year was a fluke and Wells can rebound next season.....

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by flambers

The Jays will never sit a $20M dollar player.

Thomas and Ryan got tens-of-millions in buyouts. As an organization they've shown they'll make tough moves like that to improve the team.

Originally Posted by flambers

Wells will play almost everyday and will be the main guy in CF.

Then I will be booing the manager lustily.

Originally Posted by flambers

Fans have to hope, this year was a fluke and Wells can rebound next season.....

Fans have to hope the dramatic drop off in his play once steroid testing started is a coincidence and every season since his contract extension is a fluke.

Vernon Wells Hatred Advisory System

[JustAnotherGuy]

I thing JP really blew it with the handling of the potential trading of Halladay. I think Philly was giving up enough prospects to justify trading Halladay. It would have been a nice jolt of young talent to kick start a reloading of the Jays.