Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[868904]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

If the Flames were in last place, just came off trading away Giordano, Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm and Backlund and the team was essentially just Andersson & Tkachuk with a few prospects and picks acquired you wouldn't see much Flames gear around town either.

That's not even what I said. I said in Ottawa, even during the off season, in the Summer, I will see more Flames gear than Sens gear.

Has nothing to do with what you see in Calgary right now or when the team sucks.

I'm in Ottawa all the time and over the years, be it good or bad for the Sens on the ice, you don't see much support at all.

It's a small population and City to begin with, then add in that many people are transplants from other Cities, and add in an owner that everyone hates.

There are lots of Leaf and Habs fans there. Leafs have always had Ontario and Ottawa is right on the Quebec border. Before the Sens came back, you were either a Leaf or Habs supporter, if you were even interested in hockey. Those loyalties don't just die and they also get passed on through generations.

The support for the Sens is weak. Of course they get support when the team is in the finals, every team gets that, but when they aren't, it's like they don't even exist. I know lots of people in Ottawa, most barely know of the team and those that do can only be described as casual or bandwagon fans who only care when the team is winning.

[Flamenspiel]

Yea, Ottawa is in a saturated hockey market. I'd like see that team move to Quebec, It may be a better fit.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Yea, Ottawa is in a saturated hockey market. I'd like see that team move to Quebec, It may be a better fit.

I'm glad you mentioned it, as this stood out to me when I was in Ottawa. There were primarily Canadiens fans around the city, with the odd smattering of Toronto and Colorado - but the Senators weren't as well represented around the city as you'd expect.

Talking with friends that live out there, they always consider themselves in the minority as Senator fans living in Ottawa. I thought that was very odd, but being around the city you can see that the good years of the Senators weren't enough to penetrate the family loyalties of the area.

Now move it to Quebec, where the loyalties lie in 'anyone but the Canadiens' and you'd have a much more engaged fanbase that likely would welcome a re-building team with open arms.


Didn't really know that about Ottawa until recently, but seeing it around the city it made me question the viability of another team in Toronto as well. Really tough to get fans to buy in when they're getting chirped everywhere they go in their own city.
[/DIGRESS]

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

We are witnessing first hand a microcosm of the decline of growth in the professional sports business model. The professional sports business has basically reached the apex of how much revenue it can generate on its own in North America.

Ticket pricing
Tickets are optimally priced to maximize profit for an organization. You see this with dynamic pricing (the Flames do this now by not publishing their Face value for tickets, they adjust them according to demand.) So there is not much more room to grow on that front. Once the Flames have a new building there won't be any more incremental revenue opportunities for premium tickets / suites etc.

Television / Streaming Rights

With how cable cord cutting is accelerating across North America, the long term value of TV rights deals will no longer be subsidized by other channels and cable packaging. Sports rights and the valuation of TV / streaming rights will fluctuate with actual eyeballs watching. This can only mean the value will go down and require growth in other aspects of the business model to recoup this decline.

Arena naming rights

Teams already all take the maximum value available from any company willing to purchase them. No growth here

Expansion to other markets

North America is almost saturated. There is only and handful of markets left to expand to. Expect the NHL to show up in Houston and maybe Kansas City and/or Quebec City, but at that point there will still be problem franchises that would need an alternate city to threaten their local politicians with. Growth longer term will have to come from international expansion and that opens up a number of other practical issues, such as travel, rest time, different (more punitive if it's Europe) income and business tax structures.

Merchandising

How many new jersey styles can a team release before it starts to canibalize sales? It's already customary for everyone to wear a team branded jersey, hat and/or shirt to a game when that never was the case before. How much more money can be squeezed? Maybe following the NBA and adding corporate sponsors to the kit. After that basically not much more growth.


Other Sources

This is where the real estate angle comes in. Teams are arguing that their product allows a concentration of foot traffic near their venues over a certain number of nights that theoretically support businesses that pay local taxes. In all new arena negotiations there seems to be a real estate angle to play because quite frankly the sources for incremental growth in the business does not support the historic growth arc of the business.

Below is an article about the Atlanta Braves. It outlines how they basically hose local governments for new venues / real estate and play them against each other for consistently better deals at every level they play at: Rookie league, low A, advanced A, AA, AAA, Spring Training facilities and even at the big club level (New ballpark in an Atlanta Suburb after only being in Turner Field for 20 years). There's even a quote in the article that the organization isn't a baseball team, but a real estate corporation.



https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2...raves-stadium/

You should be on the stock market if you've determined this is the exact point of this occuring, because its been an arrow straight up for about 25 years and if anything that growth is excellerating now.

[Sutter_in_law]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I was just at the Saddledome for the first time this year.

It's fine.

Unless you are someone that regularly sits in club seats. If that is the case then you should be pushing for a new arena.

If you sit with the "normies" you'd be better off hoping they just keep playing in the Dome and save yourself an extra 30% on season tickets prices.

This.

I spent almost 5 years in Edmonton *shudder* and as impressive as the new arena is I still preferred the old one. The new one feels like an airport, very little. “Vibe” or “feeling” in the building. Prices are insane, and the bathroom situation isn’t much better.

I’ll miss the dome when it’s gone, yeah there are lots of pain points but it’s got character, it’s relatively inexpensive (compared with what we can expect in a new building) and it’s where I grew up watching hockey.

Nostalgia (and $ in my jeans) wins for me every time over having to hold my pee for an extra 3 or 4 minutes...

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Buff

Where did you sit?

I make the trek to Calgary once per year to see the Flames. I have a hard time accepting nose bleed seats. View of the ice is okay but you don't see the main score board. You get old screens on the back of the press boxes. The lighting is dark and gloomy compared to the rest of the building too. It's two completely different experiences. That can be improved.

Also, we're you there for an game or concert? Did you leave your seats at intermissions or use the washroom during or after the event? Lineups are ridiculously slow and get in the way of general flow of traffic.

Many improvements can be made to enhance a users experience. In today's society everything needs to be made easier for people to use. Some people can only put up with so much of the little nuances and annoyances before they get tired of it and move along.

Some aspects of the Dome I'd be sad to lose and I'm not excited about the inevitable higher cost of attending events in the new arena, but something better does need to exist.

Yep it will be improved alright. By totally removing them. So your mid to upper 200 levels will get worse and more expensive. 300 level will be gone.

[Flamenspiel]

^^The lower 200s and 100s will also be more expensive(just not by as much), also there is a chance that seats will be smaller, I have seen it happen.

Also don't forget the ticket tax, that will be interesting and it will be charged at all events, not just hockey.

[Fire]

The Flames should have stayed in the Corral. Great sight lines...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I was just at the Saddledome for the first time this year.

It's fine.

Unless you are someone that regularly sits in club seats. If that is the case then you should be pushing for a new arena.

If you sit with the "normies" you'd be better off hoping they just keep playing in the Dome and save yourself an extra 30% on season tickets prices.

I can see someone feeling this way if they visited for the first time, or once a year or whatever. Because in that case, the only thing that really matters is sightlines - and the sightlines are good.

But if you're a STH, paying for 45 games a year, there is a lot more to it than that.

Washrooms matter. Food concession options matter. Space in the concourse matters. Size of the seats matters, as does legroom.

I have been to 15-20 rinks around the league, and the Dome is the worst in each of those categories. By a LOT in some cases.

I know that some people don't care about those things - younger people especially, budget-minded, and occasional patrons - but the people paying the bills definitely do care, to a much greater extent.

[Scary Eloranta]

^^^ My sentiments exactly

[troutman]

Originally Posted by 868904

That's not even what I said. I said in Ottawa, even during the off season, in the Summer, I will see more Flames gear than Sens gear.

Has nothing to do with what you see in Calgary right now or when the team sucks.

I'm in Ottawa all the time and over the years, be it good or bad for the Sens on the ice, you don't see much support at all.

It's a small population and City to begin with, then add in that many people are transplants from other Cities, and add in an owner that everyone hates.

There are lots of Leaf and Habs fans there. Leafs have always had Ontario and Ottawa is right on the Quebec border. Before the Sens came back, you were either a Leaf or Habs supporter, if you were even interested in hockey. Those loyalties don't just die and they also get passed on through generations.

The support for the Sens is weak. Of course they get support when the team is in the finals, every team gets that, but when they aren't, it's like they don't even exist. I know lots of people in Ottawa, most barely know of the team and those that do can only be described as casual or bandwagon fans who only care when the team is winning.

Ottawa and Calgary are about the same size, 1.3 M metro.

My Ottawa cousins (in their 40s and 50s) probably would all list the Sens as their second favorite team. They grew up liking other teams - Habs, Leafs, Blackhawks, and one is even an Oiler fan. It could take a generation for the Sens to become most people's #1 team. Moving downtown to LeBreton would probably help with attendance.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by troutman

Ottawa and Calgary are about the same size, 1.3 M metro.

My Ottawa cousins (in their 40s and 50s) probably would all list the Sens as their second favorite team. They grew up liking other teams - Habs, Leafs, Blackhawks, and one is even an Oiler fan. It could take a generation for the Sens to become most people's #1 team. Moving downtown to LeBreton would probably help with attendance.

It definitely won't hurt it. From downtown to the game it was about 45min-1h on a bus, and I've been to Detroit games and back to Windsor in less time.

There's also sweet nothing to do out there too. We had drinks and dinner at 3 Brewers and the whole time I thought that the CT Centre was going to be a quick walk from the plaza we were in. It wasn't, but instead it's a 40 min walk across the highway to get there.

Has to be the worst setup I've seen or heard of

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can see someone feeling this way if they visited for the first time, or once a year or whatever. Because in that case, the only thing that really matters is sightlines - and the sightlines are good.

But if you're a STH, paying for 45 games a year, there is a lot more to it than that.

Washrooms matter. Food concession options matter. Space in the concourse matters. Size of the seats matters, as does legroom.

I have been to 15-20 rinks around the league, and the Dome is the worst in each of those categories. By a LOT in some cases.

I know that some people don't care about those things - younger people especially, budget-minded, and occasional patrons - but the people paying the bills definitely do care, to a much greater extent.

I look back on when I had season tickets. The Saddledome experience was acceptable then based on pricing at that time but when I see what my brother now pays for those same seats for the same experience it's just not a good value at all and it's why even though I am in a position where I can afford season tickets once again I pass on the opportunity. Ditto for McMahon. Just not going to pay the current asking prices to have a seat in a substandard facility. It's one thing to pay $30k for a brand new 2006 Mustang GT in 2006 but in 2019 to pay today's new current Mustang GT price of $50k for a that same new 2006 Mustang GT with all its outdated tech is simply poor value.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can see someone feeling this way if they visited for the first time, or once a year or whatever. Because in that case, the only thing that really matters is sightlines - and the sightlines are good.

But if you're a STH, paying for 45 games a year, there is a lot more to it than that.

Washrooms matter. Food concession options matter. Space in the concourse matters. Size of the seats matters, as does legroom.

I have been to 15-20 rinks around the league, and the Dome is the worst in each of those categories. By a LOT in some cases.

I know that some people don't care about those things - younger people especially, budget-minded, and occasional patrons - but the people paying the bills definitely do care, to a much greater extent.

I have season tickets in Edmonton in the upper bowl. Rexall was a bit more crowded but as a season ticket holder you learn the tricks to get the things you need to do done with efficiency.

When the Oilers were building the new rink I was excited.

After it opened I just wanted to return to the old rink.

Upper bowl seating got further away from the ice, so they could accommodate a ring of loge seating for patrons with their own private concourse.

While the club seats and other high priced areas got plush extra wide seating with drink holders, upper bowl got only an extra inch or two in width and the seats are still very tight to sit in. And you can no longer exit the seats from the top or the bottom of the bowl, so it makes for more congestion during breaks as you can only exit up.

The upper concourse is still packed like the old rink with long lines for bathrooms. The lines for drinks are shorter, but that's mostly because they just have a bunch of random beer kiosks located everywhere which they easily could have done in the old building.

Ticket prices went up 25-30% or more in the upper bowl for what amounts to an experience for the fan that is essentially the same. Possibly worse.

To me it feels like a subsidy to help pay for all the amazing amenities that club, box, and loge seat holders get to enjoy now compared to what they received in the old barn.

So be careful for what you wish for, because unless you are going to be attending the new rink in the ultra high end seating, you probably won't directly benefit from all the new and improved building features.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I can see someone feeling this way if they visited for the first time, or once a year or whatever. Because in that case, the only thing that really matters is sightlines - and the sightlines are good.

But if you're a STH, paying for 45 games a year, there is a lot more to it than that.

Washrooms matter. Food concession options matter. Space in the concourse matters. Size of the seats matters, as does legroom.

I have been to 15-20 rinks around the league, and the Dome is the worst in each of those categories. By a LOT in some cases.

I know that some people don't care about those things - younger people especially, budget-minded, and occasional patrons - but the people paying the bills definitely do care, to a much greater extent.

former sth, dont care about anything you just said

anecdotes are great

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I have season tickets in Edmonton in the upper bowl. Rexall was a bit more crowded but as a season ticket holder you learn the tricks to get the things you need to do done with efficiency.

When the Oilers were building the new rink I was excited.

After it opened I just wanted to return to the old rink.

Upper bowl seating got further away from the ice, so they could accommodate a ring of loge seating for patrons with their own private concourse.

While the club seats and other high priced areas got plush extra wide seating with drink holders, upper bowl got only an extra inch or two in width and the seats are still very tight to sit in. And you can no longer exit the seats from the top or the bottom of the bowl, so it makes for more congestion during breaks as you can only exit up.

The upper concourse is still packed like the old rink with long lines for bathrooms. The lines for drinks are shorter, but that's mostly because they just have a bunch of random beer kiosks located everywhere which they easily could have done in the old building.

Ticket prices went up 25-30% or more in the upper bowl for what amounts to an experience for the fan that is essentially the same. Possibly worse.

To me it feels like a subsidy to help pay for all the amazing amenities that club, box, and loge seat holders get to enjoy now compared to what they received in the old barn.

So be careful for what you wish for, because unless you are going to be attending the new rink in the ultra high end seating, you probably won't directly benefit from all the new and improved building features.

Agreed on all points here. Lots of buddies were STH's up in Edmonton for over a decade, and about 50% have given up their seats so far after 1 season in the new rink, or are about to give them up after this season.

It's untenable long term for the average fan, and the in-game experience (the arena itself) hasn't gotten that much better.

[Split98]

^ one thing that I really disliked about Edmonton (especially coming from the Dome) was how far back all the seating was. Very football like and not the knees to your neighbours head seating you're used to in a rink. We had good seats in the lower bowl, but I felt like I was pretty far back from the game, and seeing the other end of the rink was tough.

Whatever they do in Calgary, I'd hope that the views at a hockey game is the primary consideration.

[_Q_]

I've been to 4 NHL rinks (Toronto, Washington, Ottawa and Calgary) and one NBA arena (New Orleans). Not sure what kind of mind blowing, orgasmic, arena experience y'all are having where bathroom lines are 10 seconds long during intermission. Most arenas are almost identical from a fan perspective in my mind.

With that said, I'm all for a new arena in Calgary. I just don't expect to have my brains blasted every time I watch a Flames game.

[Muffins]

Originally Posted by Split98

^ one thing that I really disliked about Edmonton (especially coming from the Dome) was how far back all the seating was. Very football like and not the knees to your neighbours head seating you're used to in a rink. We had good seats in the lower bowl, but I felt like I was pretty far back from the game, and seeing the other end of the rink was tough.

Whatever they do in Calgary, I'd hope that the views at a hockey game is the primary consideration.

If the rumors are to be believed, the new arena will be an inverted bowl design. That would help with the "far away" issue.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I have season tickets in Edmonton in the upper bowl. Rexall was a bit more crowded but as a season ticket holder you learn the tricks to get the things you need to do done with efficiency.

When the Oilers were building the new rink I was excited.

After it opened I just wanted to return to the old rink.

Upper bowl seating got further away from the ice, so they could accommodate a ring of loge seating for patrons with their own private concourse.

While the club seats and other high priced areas got plush extra wide seating with drink holders, upper bowl got only an extra inch or two in width and the seats are still very tight to sit in. And you can no longer exit the seats from the top or the bottom of the bowl, so it makes for more congestion during breaks as you can only exit up.

The upper concourse is still packed like the old rink with long lines for bathrooms. The lines for drinks are shorter, but that's mostly because they just have a bunch of random beer kiosks located everywhere which they easily could have done in the old building.

Ticket prices went up 25-30% or more in the upper bowl for what amounts to an experience for the fan that is essentially the same. Possibly worse.

To me it feels like a subsidy to help pay for all the amazing amenities that club, box, and loge seat holders get to enjoy now compared to what they received in the old barn.

So be careful for what you wish for, because unless you are going to be attending the new rink in the ultra high end seating, you probably won't directly benefit from all the new and improved building features.

I agree - the upper bowl of that arena sucks. And that is unfortunate. But it doesn't change the discussion.