Treliving needs to start feeling the heat

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Well you certainly have a lot of time on your hands.

This all seems rather nit-picky. Look at Hillier for example, what were the other options and at what cost? Was Raymond a bad bet? Yeah, probably but again, what were the options? Chase some other UFA that may or may not want to sign in Calgary (keep in mind the Flames were hardly an attractive destination at the time). Or perhaps bring up Kenny Agostino? If my memory is right, this was right around the time Bob Hartley was doing a wonderful job of developing Sven Beartchi.

You barely reference Frolik, Versteeg, engellend who all proved to be useful acquisitions. Sure Engellend was probably signed for too much, but he brought an element to this team that I think they miss and now need to address once again.

Your arguments don't seem rooted in reality, they merely look back and say 'what if'. It's basically living your life in a way where you say to yourself 'if I only asked out that girl then we'd be married and rich living in Mout Royal.'

Lastly, treliving has been pretty shrewd as far as pick acquisition & turning those picks into players who can play meaningful minutes and are under control. If there is a better strategy to deploy, I'm all ears.

I think you missed the gist of his post, which is that despite Treliving's moves (spending picks on players to upgrade the roster whether you like the moves or not) the team has shown essentially no progression. Four years into Treliving's tenure can we say he has been a solid success?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

No they are not. They are businessmen whose only vested interest in the Calgary Flames comes down to profits. Would they like to have a successful team that lines their own pockets with sellout crowds and playoff revenue? Of course. Do they care about investing their own money into in a winning team and doing whatever it takes to bring a Stanley Cup to the city of Calgary like you and I? Probably not.

What a load of crap. Unless we are talking about the NFL no rich businessman gets into professional sports to make money as there are far better ways to profit off $500 million than owning an NHL team.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

What a load of crap. Unless we are talking about the NFL no rich businessman gets into professional sports to make money as there are far better ways to profit off $500 million than owning an NHL team.

Sorry but I just can't picture Murray Edwards and friends as the 'beer and hockey with da boyz' type. I'm sure the Flames are a drop in the bucket compared to the money he rakes in through other business ventures, but owning a hockey team in a Canadian market will always be a license to print money in the long term.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Very true. I just have this terrible feeling GG et al gets another year.

Did you hear something?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I think you missed the gist of his post, which is that despite Treliving's moves (spending picks on players to upgrade the roster whether you like the moves or not) the team has shown essentially no progression. Four years into Treliving's tenure can we say he has been a solid success?

If the gist was that the team is not in a better position today than it was four years ago, I strongly disagree.

Further which GM could you unquestionably say is a 'solid success'. You could take a snap shot in time and build a case that any GM has failed.

George McPhee: genius today for building the knights, buffoon for trading Filip Forsberg for Martin Erat.

Ken Holland: built a powerhouse team for over a decade and a half, the moron who signed Stephen Wiese.

Don Sweeney: today he's GM of a cup favorite, has the hockey world mystified at the 2015 draft 'what is going on in Boston?'

Joe Sakic: looking like a genius after the Matt Duschene trade, a year ago? Completely incompetent.

Again, find me a GM without a few blemishes on his record.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Sorry but I just can't picture Murray Edwards and friends as the 'beer and hockey with da boyz' type. I'm sure the Flames are a drop in the bucket compared to the money he rakes in through other business ventures, but owning a hockey team in a Canadian market will always be a license to print money in the long term.

Not always. Winnipeg lost a team. So did Quebec. Ottawa went into CCAA protection.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Sorry but I just can't picture Murray Edwards and friends as the 'beer and hockey with da boyz' type. I'm sure the Flames are a drop in the bucket compared to the money he rakes in through other business ventures, but owning a hockey team in a Canadian market will always be a license to print money in the long term.

Hockey teams don't generate much money at all. It's actually one of the worst investments. Owners generally own a hockey team just because they love the sport. That money can definitely be invested elsewhere, where it will generate a much better return.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Hudler went on to score 57 points over two seasons afterwards and is out of the league.

What do you think treliving could have got? You can be assured if a team was offering a first treliving would have taken it. The reason the Flames didn't get a first is because no one was willing to give them a first.

Who was going to give you anything for Raymond, Hillier, or Bollig? Those are bit parts and every team, aside from the very best has more than a couple.

Give it a rest man. If you're going to be critical, think about it a little bit.

Lastly, the Flames won the Bollig trade, unless you think Matt Iocapelli is a better hockey player than Bollig.

Actually they didn’t, even considering we have no idea who the Flames would have drafted.

They had to pay Bollig lots of money to play terrible hockey.


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[edslunch]

Originally Posted by TOfan

If the gist was that the team is not in a better position today than it was four years ago, I strongly disagree.

Further which GM could you unquestionably say is a 'solid success'. You could take a snap shot in time and build a case that any GM has failed.

George McPhee: genius today for building the knights, buffoon for trading Filip Forsberg for Martin Erat.

Ken Holland: built a powerhouse team for over a decade and a half, the moron who signed Stephen Wiese.

Don Sweeney: today he's GM of a cup favorite, has the hockey world mystified at the 2015 draft 'what is going on in Boston?'

Joe Sakic: looking like a genius after the Matt Duschene trade, a year ago? Completely incompetent.

Again, find me a GM without a few blemishes on his record.

Not talking blemishes, sure everyone has them, talking about results. As much as the Flames look better on paper the results are decidedly mixed, unless you want to argue this season is somehow a step forward?

[Roof-Daddy]

This season has been a massive disappointment, magnified by the fact that our 1st and 2nd round picks were traded away in what is now a non-playoff year right at the tail end of a rebuild.


It sucks but progress isn't always linear.

Yes, Treliving has made some mistakes but I don't think he's a terrible GM, and I think firing him at this point would be a pretty shortsighted move.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

This season has been a massive disappointment, magnified by the fact that our 1st and 2nd round picks were traded away in what is now a non-playoff year right at the tail end of a rebuild.


It sucks but progress isn't always linear.

Yes, Treliving has made some mistakes but I don't think he's a terrible GM, and I think firing him at this point would be a pretty shortsighted move.

Yeah it's absolutely too soon to fire him.

But we really need to start making the playoffs at the very least for him to last here.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Itse

Yeah it's absolutely too soon to fire him.

But we really need to start making the playoffs at the very least for him to last here.

Yeah, but when he started in 2014, if you had taken a poll at that time on how many times he'd GM this team to a playoff spot in his first 4 seasons, I bet the majority would have guessed 2/4, which is exactly what he's done.

It's just the order those playoff years came in that would have people befuddled. Like I said though, progress isn't always linear.

Really need to see the right adjustments made this off season though for this team to take a big step forward next season. If more mistakes are made that set the team back even farther, then you have to start thinking about making changes at the top.

[redforever]

I am not so much disappointed in the overall player moves BT has made as I am with the coaching staff he put in place to deal with the roster he created.

Get a decent coaching staff and give them a year and then I will decide how BT has done.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Actually they didn’t, even considering we have no idea who the Flames would have drafted.

They had to pay Bollig lots of money to play terrible hockey.


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Opposed to what?

Certainly Bollig leaves a lot to be desired, but at least he played games.

These arguments that Treliving made various mistakes along the way with no real understanding of context are obtuse.

I know it's unfashionable to say, but yes Brandon Bollig brought more to the team than the asset they used to acquire him.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TOfan

If the gist was that the team is not in a better position today than it was four years ago, I strongly disagree.

Further which GM could you unquestionably say is a 'solid success'. You could take a snap shot in time and build a case that any GM has failed.

George McPhee: genius today for building the knights, buffoon for trading Filip Forsberg for Martin Erat.

Ken Holland: built a powerhouse team for over a decade and a half, the moron who signed Stephen Wiese.

Don Sweeney: today he's GM of a cup favorite, has the hockey world mystified at the 2015 draft 'what is going on in Boston?'

Joe Sakic: looking like a genius after the Matt Duschene trade, a year ago? Completely incompetent.

Again, find me a GM without a few blemishes on his record.

Jets GM Kevin Cheveldayoff was mocked to the point where Flames fans started to vocally express being sorry for Jets fans that they have an idiot GM too afraid to do anything.

Now teams all over the NHL are trying to figure out how to capture his "model" and make it their own.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by redforever

I am not so much disappointed in the overall player moves BT has made as I am with the coaching staff he put in place to deal with the roster he created.

Get a decent coaching staff and give them a year and then I will decide how BT has done.

Keep in mind, if there is any role he has limited say in, it is most likely who the coach is. We have spent to or close to the salary cap for quite some time which puts him on an even playing field to other GMs however Calgary has had one of the lowest paid coaching staffs for a while which potentially means he is very limited in who he is allowed to select from.

In hindsight, assuming he was given very limited money to hire a coach (which may have also played into not getting his first choice), I don't think the GG experiment was a bad one. It was a high-risk high reward which is all you can ask for when given less than most teams have to hire a coach. It has become completely obvious the direction of the hire finished at high risk but what other options did he have?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Hockey teams don't generate much money at all. It's actually one of the worst investments. Owners generally own a hockey team just because they love the sport. That money can definitely be invested elsewhere, where it will generate a much better return.

Increase in franchise values since 2000:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ise-value-nhl/

The average NHL team’s value is up nearly $380 million since 2008

https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2017/12...7-forbes-teams

Flames $203 M to $430 M. 111.8 %.

[Stay Golden]

Wanting to see Treliving remain with the Flames for me depends if he owns the Gulutzan hiring as a complete failure and he fires him.
If Treliving does not fire Gulutzan than he is not a very accountable GM and a poor leader.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by troutman

Increase in franchise values since 2000:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ise-value-nhl/

The average NHL team’s value is up nearly $380 million since 2008

https://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2017/12...7-forbes-teams

Flames $203 M to $430 M. 111.8 %.

From an appreciation standpoint, yes it’s increased in value. From a cash flow perspective, their margins are somewhere in the 5-8% mark, which is not much.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Wanting to see Treliving remain with the Flames for me depends if he owns the Gulutzan hiring as a complete failure and he fires him.
If Treliving does not fire Gulutzan than he is not a very accountable GM and a poor leader.

Fickle.

This is the stuff of a 21 year old bitter girlfriend who is about to go through a breakup one way or the other.