Former Flames player performance thread - 2022/23 season

[dino7c]

"gave up"

He was a pending UFA that wouldn't sign

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Yes this may be worse than Gilmour for Leeman.

If I'm a Florida fan I'm over the moon right now. I still think they will make the playoffs.

Hmm...I'm not sure I'm convinced they will make it. The offense has been mostly fine all year, and Tkachuk is a massive part of that. But the defense and goaltending have been average to very subpar, and I don't expect that to improve a whole lot the rest of the way.

The Huberdeau performance is completely baffling to me. I know there's a lot of reasons for why it's happened, but it just doesn't make sense. He was far too good for far too long to turn into a pumpkin before even hitting 30. If ever there was a bounceback candidate for next year, it would be him. I don't see any signs that he's going to get back to a high level this year, and it may be something we have to accept, but I would NOT give up on a player of his talent level.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Ullr

Gave up the best and most talented player on this team since Iginla. Most people on this board were thrilled to see him go due to his playstyle.

I was thrilled to see him go because he wanted to leave.

#### him and Gaudreau. #### the bed against the Oilers and then left. Absolute cowards.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I'm confident Huby will eventually regain his scoring but ouch... that one hurts.

Under Sutter? I really don't know. I see no signs of him turning it around, like nothing. Even when he was on his small PPG streak he made maybe one or two good plays in a game but overall he didn't stand out at all. And on top I don't think Sutter likes him very much, gives him about 15 min of icetime per game.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Can I ask why you are confident? What has he shown you this year that inspires confidence?

This is kind of a worst nightmare scenario. Most of us had heard of Huberdeau and were aware of his numbers but very few of us (I suspect) had really ever watched him play. We all got caught up in the hype. Hell, some media even wondered whether the Flames were actually better this year than last. Huberdeau was on the cover of Hockey News a while back with the tag line superstar in the making.

I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe he will come close to the hype.

Because unless you're James Neal, players just don't forget how to play hockey. He's still in his prime as a PPG player, and I think the physical ability is still there, but he's obviously struggling to put up numbers under Sutter and with his current teammates.

Case in point: Sonny Milano did nothing in preseason but is still an NHLer with the right coaching and the right teammates.

Now, Sutter's likely not going anywhere anytime soon but if he's a good coach (and I think he's a good coach) he'll figure out how to unlock Huby. Getting the PP fixed will help out a lot (looking at you Muller). I just hope he doesn't lose confidence in the meantime because I think he does struggle a bit with that.

EDIT: I should add, my expectations are no longer him being a 115 point player. If he only scores 80-90 he'll still be overpaid but at least he'll be helping us win more hockey games.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Oh yeah. The longest possible runway the NHL can give.

I hope I’m wrong, but the 8 years at $10.5 is a millstone that will limit this team’s ability to recruit and pay more deserving players. I think Tre did as well as he could have with the trade, but signing the big contract extension based on his high point total, in what was probably the apex of Huberdeau’s career, was a mistake, and probably based on fears of Huberdeau leaving as an UFA after this season like Gaudreau. I think he should have taken that risk, and watched how he fit in here before negotiating an extension - I don’t think Huberdeau has ever been as important to his team as Gaudreau was to the Flames.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

and yet, while playing in the second round of the playoffs against the Flames biggest rival, he #### the bed. I will never forget.

The whole team got dummied, but the biggest problem was goaltending in that series. The players we got back for him crapped the bed in the playoffs just as bad last year. The difference is, one was 24 years old and the other 28 and 29.

[dino7c]

80-90 points in this system is not overpaid for 10.5 and in Calgary

Horvat just got 8.5...times are a changing

Put the player in a position to succeed...it's not like Tkachuk would have 70 points in Calgary right now either

[Flamesfan05]

Huberdeau reminds me of the Tkachuk 2 yrs ago when most of his fancy passes didn’t work


Many people here thought that was the real Tkachuk when he jumped ship. Apparently not.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by dino7c

80-90 points in this system is not overpaid for 10.5 and in Calgary

If you are an offensive winger who only brings points to the table and primarily assists at that, then being PPG is absolutely overpaid. Whatever the system.

Horvat is former captain, plays a more important position, is more physical and he's younger. Those are all qualities that the market values and that's why he probably got 1.5 million more than he should have.

Huberdeau literally only brings points. That's it.

[traptor]

At this point if we can getting a few season of 80-90 point huberdeau i would be ####ing ecstatic. The trade wasn't 1 for 1 for a reason so it's not fair to compare 1 to 1.

However, right now he's on pace for 56 points. We're pretty much in worst case scenario with huberdeau. This contract could tank our franchise for the better part of the decade.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Saqe

If you are an offensive winger who only brings points to the table and primarily assists at that, then being PPG is absolutely overpaid. Whatever the system.

Horvat is former captain, plays a more important position, is more physical and he's younger. Those are all qualities that the market values and that's why he probably got 1.5 million more than he should have.

Huberdeau literally only brings points. That's it.

Horvat has a career high 61 points and just got 8.5...like I said things are changing.

80-90 points for Huberdeau would be fine...top guys will be getting 15 soon. 56 isn't enough obviously.

Guy also has good defensive metrics

The team won 2 division titles with a 4th liner making over 5M...a PPG player at 10.5 wouldn't hurt anything even if slightly overpaid. Gaudreau will probably be a 80-90 point guy too.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Saqe

If you are an offensive winger who only brings points to the table and primarily assists at that, then being PPG is absolutely overpaid. Whatever the system.

Horvat is former captain, plays a more important position, is more physical and he's younger. Those are all qualities that the market values and that's why he probably got 1.5 million more than he should have.

Huberdeau literally only brings points. That's it.

If he has 80-90 points then that would be fine for his contract. Literally Connor McDavid is the only consistent 100+ point threat in the league for the most part.

And Huberdeau has actually been pretty stout defensively this year - probably the best defensive results of his career.

And that is 100% related to the dip in his offensive production (along with weird PP usage).

He hasn't quite learned how to play his offensive game - while also being solid defensively. He's had flashes, but hasn't been able to string anything consistently, and has really had a hard time finding open ice.

Some of that is our system as Jack Han mentioned, Flames play in the trenches not the open ice. Some of that is not cheating defensively to get more open ice on the odd man rush. Some of that is not really finding a fit with a center that's not Backlund yet.

But interesting part is if you look at goal splits - his improved defensive play has actually led to a net impact that is the same or similar to his results in Florida.

Actual Goals For %

19/20: 54.4%
20/21: 57.9%
21/22: 56.5%
22/23: 54.4%

Expected Goals For %

19/20: 49.2%
20/21: 52.2%
21/22: 53.4%
22/23: 54.3%

So he's traded offensive production for defensive play - and the net impact of his contribution from a GF/GA perspective is pretty much net netural to his impact in Florida. Just playing way lower event hockey.

And honestly I think with better finishing on his line we'd probably see more produciton too because he hasn't really meshed with his linemates or found a linemate that he can play those little one-two passes that he likes to play yet.

Lots of room for improvement but I do think he's doing what the coaching staff is asking him to do in terms of attention to detail and being more defensively responsible. He just hasn't found how to do that while being prolific offensively yet.

(And interestingly enough Tkachuk has the highest xGF of his career, but also the highest xGA of his career, and even though his production is up his GF% and xGF% is actually down vs 21/22 in Calgary. So he's producing more offense but has traded his defensive play to do that a bit).

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Horvat has a career high 61 points and just got 8.5...like I said things are changing.

Horvat was on pace for 90 points this season when traded.

[memphusk]

56 points. Less than half of last year. Not great Bob.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If he has 80-90 points then that would be fine for his contract. Literally Connor McDavid is the only consistent 100+ point threat in the league for the most part.

And Huberdeau has actually been pretty stout defensively this year - probably the best defensive results of his career.

And that is 100% related to the dip in his offensive production (along with weird PP usage).

He hasn't quite learned how to play his offensive game - while also being solid defensively. He's had flashes, but hasn't been able to string anything consistently, and has really had a hard time finding open ice.

Some of that is our system as Jack Han mentioned, Flames play in the trenches not the open ice. Some of that is not cheating defensively to get more open ice on the odd man rush. Some of that is not really finding a fit with a center that's not Backlund yet.

But interesting part is if you look at goal splits - his improved defensive play has actually led to a net impact that is the same or similar to his results in Florida.

Actual Goals For %

19/20: 54.4%
20/21: 57.9%
21/22: 56.5%
22/23: 54.4%

Expected Goals For %

19/20: 49.2%
20/21: 52.2%
21/22: 53.4%
22/23: 54.3%

So he's traded offensive production for defensive play - and the net impact of his contribution from a GF/GA perspective is pretty much net netural to his impact in Florida. Just playing way lower event hockey.

And honestly I think with better finishing on his line we'd probably see more produciton too because he hasn't really meshed with his linemates or found a linemate that he can play those little one-two passes that he likes to play yet.

Lots of room for improvement but I do think he's doing what the coaching staff is asking him to do in terms of attention to detail and being more defensively responsible. He just hasn't found how to do that while being prolific offensively yet.

(And interestingly enough Tkachuk has the highest xGF of his career, but also the highest xGA of his career, and even though his production is up his GF% and xGF% is actually down vs 21/22 in Calgary. So he's producing more offense but has traded his defensive play to do that a bit).

He has traded his offense for defense so I don't think he'll be able to be defensively as responsible and at the same time being offensive as productive as before.

But either way I know a PPG pace sounds great right now since he has been so bad but I think people would be severely disappointed even if that happened. If he puts up something like 20+60 while getting superstar money, it's not enough to me at least because so many of his points come on the PP and are (secondary) assists. And like I said before, he doesn't bring anything else to the table. He's not a difference maker at that point.

Nevertheless I was only saying he would still be overpaid even at PPG pace, I don't think the contract would be a franchise killer. But I'm probably overly pessimistic (wouldn't be the first time) but this whole point seems moot since I don't see him getting to even PPG pace under Sutter.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Horvat was on pace for 90 points this season when traded.

his career high before this season is still 61

do you think he will be closer to 60 or 90 with the Islanders over the next 8 years?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Saqe

He has traded his offense for defense so I don't think he'll be able to be defensively as responsible and at the same time being offensive as productive as before.

But either way I know a PPG pace sounds great right now since he has been so bad but I think people would be severely disappointed even if that happened. If he puts up something like 20+60 while getting superstar money, it's not enough to me at least because so many of his points come on the PP and are (secondary) assists. And like I said before, he doesn't bring anything else to the table. He's not a difference maker at that point.

Nevertheless I was only saying he would still be overpaid even at PPG pace, I don't think the contract would be a franchise killer. But I'm probably overly pessimistic (wouldn't be the first time) but this whole point seems moot since I don't see him getting to even PPG pace under Sutter.

he did lead the league in PRIMARY assists last season...pretty quick to write the guy off. Find him the players and put him in a spot to be successful...if you don't have them go get them.

You guys are insane if you think Tkachuk would have 71 points in Calgary if he stayed and was playing with Lindholm and Mangiapane playing this system and far fewer minutes.

The contract is done, give it the best possible chance of success.

[GioforPM]

I still don't see a better deal that was available for Tkachuk.

As for Huberdeau's contract, I was reliably informed that if Treliving didn't have him and Weegar signed preseason it was a huge failure. I'd like to see if any of those people are now on the "anchor contract" bandwagon.

[dino7c]

Flames D would be an absolute disaster without Weegar right now too