I think its a stretch to blame a culture of hazing and childish behaviour that started in basic on a drug that was used in theater.
While there were key breakdowns in the leadership (both officer and NCO) in the Airborne, I fully believe that some of what occurred in Belut Huen and the tour in general can be attributed to Mefloquine. At the very least the soldier's mental state wasn't aided by the drug.
The side affects of Mefloquine can be seem all over that tour, and future tours, at least this is what my friends tell me that took the drug.
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
ohn Dowe, a plaintiff in the pending lawsuits, will speak at Saturday's town hall meeting in north Edmonton. Dowe, who served with the Canadians Forces from 1990 to 2000, took mefloquine tablets while serving in 1992 with the now-infamous Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia.
He said the adverse effects of the drugs were immediate and troubling, and that he still feels them to this day.
"That tour was supposed to undergo a clinical drug trial with Health Canada and the Department of National Defence," said Dowe, who has since been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder.
"I suffered acute symptoms of hyper-vigilance, anxiety, disassociation, insomnia and sleep disturbances. Those were the main ones. Unfortunately today, I still have chronic symptoms."
Quote:
Master Cpl. Clayton Matchee, one of the two soldiers eventually charged in Arone's death, had "wigged out," Dowe said. He was beating imaginary camel spiders in the bunker where he held the bruised Somali prisoner before the teen's body was found an hour later.
The Saskatchewan soldier was later found hanging in his cell. He suffered irreparable brain damage as a result of the suicide attempt.
You had solider's in afghanistan that had days labeled by the mood after they were given the drug.
Matchee and his fellow soldiers had been given mefloquine (also known as Lariam), an anti-malarial drug, prior to its licensing by Canadian health officials and outside an approved experimental use protocol.
Troops were neither issued a written warning about dangerous side effects (and the need to stop taking the drug should any such side effects be experienced), nor were they asked to sign a consent form.
Matchee experienced nightmares, anxiety and hallucinations while taking the drug; prior to the death of Arone, when Matchee was still in Canada, his wife saw evidence of the drug’s terrible effects. Matchee was under orders not to stop taking the drug.
On the night Arone died, then-Trooper John Dowe heard Matchee talk about camel spiders in the bunker they were in and spiders on Arone’s body; there were no spiders, and Matchee was hallucinating, according to Dowe.
As Dr. Nevin has explained, “Visual hallucinations are a prominent feature of mefloquine psychosis, which can be associated with acts of violence towards the self and others.”
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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I've taken it. Woke up with Thai girls going through our backpacks, walking around our hut carrying knives. Took a good 2 minutes for my brain to reset and the girls disappeared. So ya, I can believe the stories. I only took it for a week.
And so the timeless quest for the pharmaceutical enhanced "super-soldier" continues (this began in the 1930's with crystal meth/Pervitan).
It's been an ongoing pursuit ever since.
It saddens me to read the posts above.
You can't deprive a human being of a regular sleep schedule without facing the consequences (in psychological effect) on said human being.
This was thoroughly proven in the 1950's (USAF studies on aircrew) and the question has to be?
Why keep trying this approach?
If we keep tinkering with these stimulants (and using our soldiers as guinea pigs) we're eventually going to find the "miracle pill"?
This makes me sad...we are better than this crap.
We already make/field some of the best soldiers in the world.
That is all.
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And so the timeless quest for the pharmaceutical enhanced "super-soldier" continues (this began in the 1930's with crystal meth/Pervitan).
It's been an ongoing pursuit ever since.
It saddens me to read the posts above.
You can't deprive a human being of a regular sleep schedule without facing the consequences (in psychological effect) on said human being.
This was thoroughly proven in the 1950's (USAF studies on aircrew) and the question has to be?
Why keep trying this approach?
If we keep tinkering with these stimulants (and using our soldiers as guinea pigs) we're eventually going to find the "miracle pill"?
This makes me sad...we are better than this crap.
We already make/field some of the best soldiers in the world.
That is all.
These weren't stimulants though, these were badly developed and tested anti-malaria pills that ruined lives.
The government is going to face the music on that one.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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These weren't stimulants though, these were badly developed and tested anti-malaria pills that ruined lives.
The government is going to face the music on that one.
My bad. Simply made an assumption based on the side effects described within the quoted testimonials.
I figured it possible that they were probably going for a "hybrid" of some sort?
I.E. ?
"Here bud, take your "malaria" pill so you don't get sick...
Walter Matthau sez: "Never assume...you only make an (etc, etc)" LOL!
I'm intrigued as to what the hell kind of organics (had to be some sort of organic chemistry by my guess) they were working on to try and achieve the result?
A huntin' we will go...
Last edited by Bindair Dundat; 10-19-2019 at 04:11 PM.
This has nothing to do with the government experimenting on soldiers. It was a common anti-malarial drug with known side-effects back then. I wasn't in the military, I got it from a travel clinic. The problem is they knew about the side effects and ignored or down played them.
This has nothing to do with the government experimenting on soldiers. It was a common anti-malarial drug with known side-effects back then. I wasn't in the military, I got it from a travel clinic. The problem is they knew about the side effects and ignored or down played them.
There is some good written history in existence which examines this largely forgotten aspect of our Nation's contribution to the ultimate outcome of the Second World War.
J.L. Granatstein and Terry Copp have both published works which deal with this campaign, well worth the time to go down to your local library and give them a read.
In my opinion these books are essential to understanding our nation's evolution from a Colonial backwater to a Global power in the 1950's.
Or something like that.
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There is some good written history in existence which examines this largely forgotten aspect of our Nation's contribution to the ultimate outcome of the Second World War.
J.L. Granatstein and Terry Copp have both published works which deal with this campaign, well worth the time to go down to your local library and give them a read.
In my opinion these books are essential to understanding our nation's evolution from a Colonial backwater to a Global power in the 1950's.
Or something like that.
A phucking meat grinder of a campaign.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
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In early September, the union representing machinists in the aerospace industry warned that the changes made for Lockheed Martin would come at the expense of other firms offering guaranteed work for Canada’s aerospace sector. In addition, the union is worried that if Canada were to purchase the F-35 then most of the key maintenance would be done in the U.S., putting in jeopardy 600 jobs at L-3 in Mirabel, Que. L-3 conducts maintenance on the Royal Canadian Air Force’s current CF-18 fighter fleet.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
OTTAWA -- The Royal Canadian Air Force is turning to contractors to address a shortage of experienced military pilots that has forced commanders to walk a delicate line between keeping enough seasoned aviators available to train new recruits and lead missions in the air.
In an interview with The Canadian Press, Air Force commander Lt.-Gen. Al Meinzinger revealed the military plans to hire contractors to fill some pilot-instructor positions so its active-duty aviators can continue to fly real missions in Canada and around the world.
Quote:
The measure follows a similar initiative to address a shortage of aircraft technicians, which has seen 49 contractors -- many of them retired CF-18 techs -- hired at Canada's fighter-jet bases in Bagotville, Que., and Cold Lake, Alta., to mentor and train younger personnel still in uniform.
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My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Plenty o' life left in these babies, says the top brass:
Quote:
“You and I both as taxpayers want us to get all of the money out of the investment we’ve made in platforms, and there’s still some good life in the Victoria-class submarines,” McDonald said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
“With some modest investments over the next while, we’ll be able to operate it into the 2030s, when we will start to look at decommissioning the class in a cycle. So that’s where we’re focused.”
This will do absolutely nothing to encourage pilot/technician retention and will actually increase the odds of their release. Get paid more money, get paid OT and none of the BS secondary duties crap military pers have to deal with.
__________________
"If you do not know what you are doing, neither does your enemy."
- - Joe Tzu
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