Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Ozy_Flame]

Also this from the Slate article, putting policy into action:

This month Norway implemented new taxes on car purchases that scale with vehicle weight. Although the fees are much higher for gas guzzlers, EV buyers must now pay them too—at a rate of NOK 12.50 ($1.26) per kilogram. (The first 500 kilograms are untaxed.) For larger EVs, the added expense can be significant: An Audi e-tron, one of Norway’s most popular models, now costs around $2,600 more than it did before.

Slapping new taxes on EVs might seem like a head-scratcher, especially since around 4 in 5 cars on Norwegian roads are still gas-powered. But the country’s new weight-based car fees are a sensible move to address two critical drawbacks of oversize EVs: These models exacerbate climate change, and they endanger everyone else on the street. Other countries—and U.S. states—should follow Norway’s lead.

To be clear, all gigantic cars create significant societal problems, regardless of their power source. Heavier vehicles require more energy for propulsion, which helps explain why gas-powered SUVs and trucks have pitiably low fuel efficiency compared with sedans. (The Ford Bronco, for instance, gets 22 mpg on the highway, compared with 39 mpg for the Toyota Camry.) Larger SUVs and trucks also generate additional force during a crash, endangering anyone not inside them. Researchers have linked the ascent of SUVs to the rising number of American pedestrian deaths, which hit a 40-year high in 2021.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by GGG

So like I said

Wouldn't an increase in taxes on heavy/commercial vehicles such as transport trucks and buses just create an even bigger financial issue for poor people though? The extra taxes just get added to the final cost of goods and onto transit costs so the people that struggle the most with affordability will struggle even more.

[Ozy_Flame]

Also, higher volume of heavier vehicles is going to cause problems on the lifespans of roads, personal or commercial vehicles. And some roads are designed differently than others. For example, the American Association of State Highway and Transportation set standards of how each road layer is constructed based on the use it will see most often. This regularly considers that commercial trucks will travel roadways carrying tens of thousands of pounds of cargo. Still, it also means that a rural two-lane is not necessarily designed with the same load capacity as a heavily-trafficked urban boulevard.

In other words, heavier vehicles can alter the lifespan of a road, which then reflects wear and tear.

This article details how the average American car has increased in weight over time.

Vehicles In The U.S. Are Becoming Heavier But Also More Powerful Than Ever Before

And related, this chart from the EPA shows how vehicles are getting heavier and more powerful over time as well:



My point is that creating heavier vehicles and making them more common (and payload not even considered here) is not going to do any favors for our road system, particularly as large, heavy personal use vehicles (pickups and SUVs) are the most popular personal use vehicles in Alberta. EVs will only serve to give more social license to buy more as they are perceived as "environmentally friendly".

[iggy_oi]

Good reason to invest in adding better rail and other public transit options.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Good reason to invest in adding better rail and other public transit options.

100%. EVs and the historical trajectory of car size/weight do not bode well for curbing car-centric design in cities. Real change happens through progressive urban planning such as more public and micro-transit options, incentives/disincentives for not using personal use vehicles, maximizing car sharing and delivery options for residents ("multiple customers in one trip" type of traveling), and redesigning urban areas so that people don't need to drive long distances to get anything, if at all.

[iggy_oi]

One has to wonder how much could be done in that regard with say $2B in revenue from 6 months of fuel taxes.

[woob]

Can we weight tax the ridiculous, ever increasing in size, 5th wheels/travel trailers and motorhomes too?

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Also, higher volume of heavier vehicles is going to cause problems on the lifespans of roads, personal or commercial vehicles.

This was just debunked a couple posts back. Even if every car instantly converted to a F-250 today, it wouldn't meaningfully change the wear on road surfaces. It's the larger delivery trucks and up that cause the majority of road wear. A generic residential street in Calgary or a generic rural road in Rockyview County won't have any issues handling SUVs or Light Trucks, no matter how many of them there are.

It's better to focus on the other significant societal issues around the push for larger personal vehicles than claiming road surfaces will suffer more.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

This was just debunked a couple posts back. Even if every car instantly converted to a F-250 today, it wouldn't meaningfully change the wear on road surfaces. It's the larger delivery trucks and up that cause the majority of road wear. A generic residential street in Calgary or a generic rural road in Rockyview County won't have any issues handling SUVs or Light Trucks, no matter how many of them there are.

It's better to focus on the other significant societal issues around the push for larger personal vehicles than claiming road surfaces will suffer more.

Again, going back to the ATMA quotes, it's about lifespan. More heavier vehicles, on roads with less durability, over time, will come back to the taxpayer.

From the President of the American Society of Civil Engineers (link):

"As you put more, and heavier, passenger vehicles on a standard road surface, you're taking life out of it," says Lehman. "Maybe it's not going to last for 20 years—maybe it's only going to make it to 18."

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Wouldn't an increase in taxes on heavy/commercial vehicles such as transport trucks and buses just create an even bigger financial issue for poor people though? The extra taxes just get added to the final cost of goods and onto transit costs so the people that struggle the most with affordability will struggle even more.

I would assume that under any plan, a vehicle bought or leased under a business license, for commercial or industrial use, would be exempt.

[Brendone]

Originally Posted by woob

Can we weight tax the ridiculous, ever increasing in size, 5th wheels/travel trailers and motorhomes too?

Only if we can tax the soccer Moms/Dads that are driving to/from the house ten times a day for kid’s activities, hot yoga, Starbucks runs, etc.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Again, going back to the ATMA quotes, it's about lifespan. More heavier vehicles, on roads with less durability, over time, will come back to the taxpayer.

From the President of the American Society of Civil Engineers (link):

"As you put more, and heavier, passenger vehicles on a standard road surface, you're taking life out of it," says Lehman. "Maybe it's not going to last for 20 years—maybe it's only going to make it to 18."

It all rings hollow to me when since I haven't seen any meaningful ESAL recalculations with the market share of smaller cars nosediving over the last 30 years. Road pavement structures haven't changed in any meaningful way in response to the ever increasing personal vehicle sizes in North America, so I doubt many jurisdictions will change them for EVs.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by woob

Can we weight tax the ridiculous, ever increasing in size, 5th wheels/travel trailers and motorhomes too?

If it's on the basis of how often / how far they move, sure, but a lot of those things are purchased to stay almost exclusively in one spot and barely go anywhere at all. That's not hurting anything.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Wouldn't an increase in taxes on heavy/commercial vehicles such as transport trucks and buses just create an even bigger financial issue for poor people though? The extra taxes just get added to the final cost of goods and onto transit costs so the people that struggle the most with affordability will struggle even more.

Like any consumption tax, it's proportional. Consumer more, pay more. Of course the relative pain would be greater for poor folks, but that can be easily mitigated by making it revenue neutral with a rebate system.

[fotze2]

I think they should tax based on the amount of gas you use. The more weight the more gas mostly. Also incentivizes efficiency for transport vehicles. Probably easily implemented as you just tax the gas at the pump.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by fotze2

I think they should tax based on the amount of gas you use. The more weight the more gas mostly. Also incentivizes efficiency for transport vehicles. Probably easily implemented as you just tax the gas at the pump.

Ya but we're too smart for that bull#### in Alberta

[Fuzz]

You can't stick it to the Liberals if you charge gas taxes. Come on, lets not be silly.

[Dion]

Had a scheduled visit with my doctor this afternoon. He wasn't there and another was filling in. I was asked to get some blood work done and I then went into diatribe regarding Dynalife and how the UCP has royalty effed things up. I told her I voted NDP and she let out a huge thank God! She explained residents in my small town refuse to see how harmful the UCP is to health care.

[Weitz]

The blood work thing sucks now for sure. But really just show up 5 mins before they open and be in and out in less than 30 minutes then go to work. My wife goes real often and this works for her. In fact, she didn’t even know people were complaining so much until her most recent visit when she went 2 hours after opening and it took like an hour.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Weitz

The blood work thing sucks now for sure. But really just show up 5 mins before they open and be in and out in less than 30 minutes then go to work. My wife goes real often and this works for her. In fact, she didn’t even know people were complaining so much until her most recent visit when she went 2 hours after opening and it took like an hour.

There is a large lineup of people like your wife waiting every morning in High River. Problem is you have to wait for any openings, which are few due to many having to fast for their bloodwork. She's lucky I would say.