Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Eh... I get it. The people who own and drive EVs are generally not the people who need a break right now.

[Ozy_Flame]

EV's should be taxed for the infrastructure they use, but people want more equity in driving? Emissions aside, then government needs to charge higher taxes for heavier vehicles. My compact sedan doesn't do near the wear and tear that huge personal use pickup trucks do on the roads. Undercharging for heavier/larger vehicles is incompatible for growing road usage. EV's will not curb vehicle usage; in fact, it might accelerate their use due to the social license they present. But EV pickups are at times just as heavy if not heavier than their ICE counterparts.

So, it would stand to reason that gas taxes should return (keeping them removed is more ideology than practicality), EV's should have a some element of tax applied at some point in the value chain, and people who choose to drive heavier vehicles should have their vehicle taxes augmented accordingly.

I love EVs, but frankly they do nothing to curb road-centric design in urban areas. We need to be moving away from that as much as possible for sustainability and curbing sprawl.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

EV's should be taxed for the infrastructure they use, but people want more equity in driving? Emissions aside, then government needs to charge higher taxes for heavier vehicles. My compact sedan doesn't do near the wear and tear that huge personal use pickup trucks do on the roads. Undercharging for heavier/larger vehicles is incompatible for growing road usage. EV's will not curb vehicle usage; in fact, it might accelerate their use due to the social license they present. But EV pickups are at times just as heavy if not heavier than their ICE counterparts.

So, it would stand to reason that gas taxes should return (keeping them removed is more ideology than practicality), EV's should have a some element of tax applied at some point in the value chain, and people who choose to drive heavier vehicles should have their vehicle taxes augmented accordingly.

I love EVs, but frankly they do nothing to curb road-centric design in urban areas. We need to be moving away from that as much as possible for sustainability and curbing sprawl.

A Tesla Model Y weighs just 100 pounds less than a Ford F-350, fwiw.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by #-3

It's actually a well documented effect.

Wiki article because it's easier to source, if you're going to ask for better references scroll to the links at the bottom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority

Illusory superiority is a psychological effect, if you're giving a math test the difference between mean and median is absolutely fair game. You didn't specify which type of average you were using, and you implicitly assumed that voter competence was normally distributed (Or at least distributed in a symmetrical fashion). I think that underlying assumption is flawed.

See for example: https://www.adam-campbell.com/post/m...-than-average/

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Eh... I get it. The people who own and drive EVs are generally not the people who need a break right now.

Neither are people commuting in $90K F-350s, and those are exempt from the gas guzzler taxes.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Illusory superiority is a psychological effect, if you're giving a math test the difference between mean and median is absolutely fair game. You didn't specify which type of average you were using, and you implicitly assumed that voter competence was normally distributed (Or at least distributed in a symmetrical fashion). I think that underlying assumption is flawed.

See for example: https://www.adam-campbell.com/post/m...-than-average/

The math test was that 1/4 of people think they are above average and are wrong, but 1/3 of people who think they are above average are wrong. And I assume people who struggle to wrap their heads around both of those numbers at the same time are in that group, as 1/2 of people should get it and 1/4 of people probably wont try.

It was funny in my head, but now I'm explaining it, so it's not funny.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Neither are people commuting in $90K F-350s, and those are exempt from the gas guzzler taxes.

That's true, I paid half of that for my EV with the expectation of saving about $90/month.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

A Tesla Model Y weighs just 100 pounds less than a Ford F-350, fwiw.

As much as I rant about trucks their effect on roads is not hugely greater than cars, especially those that never haul anything. I bet the extra fuel they consume pays for the difference.

EVs should get taxed eventually, but definitely not now while the gas tax freeze is on. I'm sure our government will do what's fair. /s

[iggy_oi]

Have they announced when we’ll be holding a referendum on this new tax?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by #-3

The math test was that 1/4 of people think they are above average and are wrong, but 1/3 of people who think they are above average are wrong. And I assume people who struggle to wrap their heads around both of those numbers at the same time are in that group, as 1/2 of people should get it and 1/4 of people probably wont try.

It was funny in my head, but now I'm explaining it, so it's not funny.

Right, that part was obvious, 1/3 of 75% is 25% of people. I just think the underlying premise is flawed in an interesting way.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

EV's should be taxed for the infrastructure they use, but people want more equity in driving? Emissions aside, then government needs to charge higher taxes for heavier vehicles. My compact sedan doesn't do near the wear and tear that huge personal use pickup trucks do on the roads. Undercharging for heavier/larger vehicles is incompatible for growing road usage. EV's will not curb vehicle usage; in fact, it might accelerate their use due to the social license they present. But EV pickups are at times just as heavy if not heavier than their ICE counterparts.

So, it would stand to reason that gas taxes should return (keeping them removed is more ideology than practicality), EV's should have a some element of tax applied at some point in the value chain, and people who choose to drive heavier vehicles should have their vehicle taxes augmented accordingly.

I love EVs, but frankly they do nothing to curb road-centric design in urban areas. We need to be moving away from that as much as possible for sustainability and curbing sprawl.

I don’t think passenger vehicles and light truck weights are meaningfully different in terms of damage to the life cycle of roads. I’ll see if I can find something to back that up though. My recollection was that it’s semis and weather that govern pavement life.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don’t think passenger vehicles and light truck weights are meaningfully different in terms of damage to the life cycle of roads. I’ll see if I can find something to back that up though. My recollection was that it’s semis and weather that govern pavement life.

It is the weight of the vehicle that deteriorates the road. So yes, a semi would cause more damage than a ICE car, but an EV would cause more damage than that same ICE car.

Certain models of EVs are causing more damage, or wear on the roads than a dodge ram truck.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don’t think passenger vehicles and light truck weights are meaningfully different in terms of damage to the life cycle of roads. I’ll see if I can find something to back that up though. My recollection was that it’s semis and weather that govern pavement life.

Yeah, pretty much this. It's not that the weight of a private vehicle doesn't do any damage, but by the time it would be enough to warrant repairs, it's already been re-paved anyway because of weather damage

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Have they announced when we’ll be holding a referendum on this new tax?

Yes it was held on May 29th.

Don’t miss the next one May 31st 2027.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Yes it was held on May 29th.

Don’t miss the next one May 31st 2027.

Sounds like the joke went way over your head.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Yes it was held on May 29th.

Don’t miss the next one May 31st 2027.

No the UCP promised to pass bill 1. A bill on no new increases or new taxes without referendums. I like to call it the dumbest law ever that will ironically only make tax increases on business and the wealthy possible.

So presuming Bill 1 is bill 1 a stupid referendum is required unlike the way the system is supposed to work as you outlined above.

You really should understand what you voted for.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GGG

No the UCP promised to pass bill 1. A bill on no new increases or new taxes without referendums. I like to call it the dumbest law ever that will ironically only make tax increases on business and the wealthy possible.

So presuming Bill 1 is bill 1 a stupid referendum is required unlike the way the system is supposed to work as you outlined above.

You really should understand what you voted for.

I wonder if the wording of bill 1 means it doesn't apply:

The new legislation would require referendums prior to personal and business tax increases.

https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/ta...t-to-taxpayers

Another example of the UCP giving voters the perception they are doing one thing, while just making an end run on it.

Just because the sign says:


doesn't mean the bill says that.

Pretty much as valuable as her public healthcare guarantee. Welcome to being deceived, again.

[Ozy_Flame]

Good reads on taxing heavier vehicles:

Globe and Mail: EVs won’t cause roads to crumble faster, but our love of heavier cars is causing problems

The Guardian: Instead of taxing electric vehicles, heavy vehicles should pay more for the damage they cause


Slate: If You Want a Car This Heavy, You Should Pay Through the Nose

Urban Institute: In the US, Could Taxing Heavy Cars Be a First Step toward Reducing Pedestrian Fatalities?

[PepsiFree]

Personally, as the unbiased driver of a heavy, gas-guzzling ICE vehicle, I believe that taxing based on weight is folly and they should just tax the #### out of EVs.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Good reads on taxing heavier vehicles:

Globe and Mail: EVs won’t cause roads to crumble faster, but our love of heavier cars is causing problems

The Guardian: Instead of taxing electric vehicles, heavy vehicles should pay more for the damage they cause


Slate: If You Want a Car This Heavy, You Should Pay Through the Nose

Urban Institute: In the US, Could Taxing Heavy Cars Be a First Step toward Reducing Pedestrian Fatalities?

So like I said

Extremely heavy vehicles such as commercial trucks and buses cause the majority of the wear and tear on roads. Any additional damage caused by the shift to EVs will be so marginal as to be a non-issue – well, unless everyone replaces their Honda Civics with fully loaded 37,000-kilogram Tesla Semi trucks or gargantuan Hummer EVs.