*SPOILER DISCUSSION* Star Wars The Force Awakens *POST HERE AFTER SEEING THE MOVIE*

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Cool video. But doesn't explain how Maz got the saber which is driving me nuts.

Yeah, the only gap of real consequence is totally ignored.

[Regulator75]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Cool video. But doesn't explain how Maz got the saber which is driving me nuts.

Ep VIII...

Spoiler!

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

It was also a lightsaber that did a lot of good.

It was never the tool that was evil, it was the user.

The tombstone was debated endlessly on theforce.net until it was decided that it was pretty much just a rock.

Wait. Was it a lightsabre that did a lot of good? Anakin had it for a long time, and Luke promptly lost it in his first battle.

I suppose you could say whatever good Anakin did with it? But Luke pretty much took down an ATAT and that was about it. It hardly erases any of the bad stuff Anakin did with it. Anyway, if it was tainted, Luke should have reacted similarly when Obi Wan gave it to him.

Anyway, I don't think It was the particular lightsabre itself that triggered Rey's memories, but just the Jedi paraphernalia in general.

[GreenLantern]

Wait. Was it a lightsabre that did a lot of good? Anakin had it for a long time, and Luke promptly lost it in his first battle.

I suppose you could say whatever good Anakin did with it? But Luke pretty much took down an ATAT and that was about it. It hardly erases any of the bad stuff Anakin did with it. Anyway, if it was tainted, Luke should have reacted similarly when Obi Wan gave it to him.

Anyway, I don't think It was the particular lightsabre itself that triggered Rey's memories, but just the Jedi paraphernalia in general.

[Luder]

Originally Posted by nik-

Yeah, the only gap of real consequence is totally ignored.

I read some where, may have been here, that the opening scene of the movie was going to be the sabre floating in space, but thankfully it was cut. It could have been worse lol

[Luder]

Here it is. #7 on the list

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/star...e-concept-art/

this link does a better good job of discussing things that were left out including the lightsabre

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayli...-more-20151230

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Wait. Was it a lightsabre that did a lot of good? Anakin had it for a long time, and Luke promptly lost it in his first battle.

If you look at its history, Anakin had that lightsaber for years, he was the hero of the republic saved many lives, saved his friends, on more then one occasion pushed back the Sith.

The only evil act I can think of was the execution of the younglings, and yes that was completely balls to the walls evil. for the most part if we were talking about Vaders actual light sabers and not Anakins then I could see where Rey would be feeling overwhelming evil and dark side vibes from it.

Originally Posted by Wormius

I suppose you could say whatever good Anakin did with it? But Luke pretty much took down an ATAT and that was about it. It hardly erases any of the bad stuff Anakin did with it. Anyway, if it was tainted, Luke should have reacted similarly when Obi Wan gave it to him.

I would agrree to an extent, I've always thought that Luke's Force prowness was a bit exagerated compared to a guy like Anakin or Yoda or even Mace. He didn't seem to have that Force emathy or ability to see clearly into the future like the pre clone wars Jedi or Sith.

I would argue that Luke didn't take down that AT-AT thanks to his force powers. Just like his skills against the Wampa were pretty feeble. Even Vader basically toyed with him in their first duel as he was more interested in converting him then killing him.

Even in the Return of the Jedi, Luke was relatively untrained. He didn't realize his true potential until he gave into his anger against Vader and then when he denied himself this power, Sidious pretty well was going to end him without breaking a sweat.

Anyways power aside, it was pretty much a Grey object, there had been great evil and great good acomplished with Anakins original ligh saber.

Originally Posted by Wormius

Anyway, I don't think It was the particular lightsabre itself that triggered Rey's memories, but just the Jedi paraphernalia in general.

I have this theory that it wasn't as much the light saber as it was circumstance that bought the force to life and let Rey sense those memories and echos.

I always found it kind of weird that an object that she had never seen before could trigger a vision like that.

[Coach]

But Captain, couldn't you argue that every action done with Anakin's, or any lightsabre, during the Palpatine Republic was evil? If The Clone Wars taught me anything, it's that the Republic was doing all sorts of evil without really considering it so.

Invading sovereign planets
Killing beings simply defending their home world
Using individually aware people (clones) as expendable soldiers
Basically being a tool of war in general, which goes against their doctrine

All ultimately in the name of turning over the galaxy to a mad man.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MattyC

But Captain, couldn't you argue that every action done with Anakin's, or any lightsabre, during the Palpatine Republic was evil? If The Clone Wars taught me anything, it's that the Republic was doing all sorts of evil without really considering it so.

Invading sovereign planets
Killing beings simply defending their home world
Using individually aware people (clones) as expendable soldiers
Basically being a tool of war in general, which goes against their doctrine

All ultimately in the name of turning over the galaxy to a mad man.

Ok, here's my argument against that.

The Jedi I believe saw the Clone Wars not as a war between the Seperatists and the Republic, but as a war against the coming darkness that they could all feel.

Remember they were gradually being clouded by the dark side of the force. So while they did these things, the Jedi didn't believe that they were perpetuating evil.

Of course on later reflection even Yoda realized that it was a war that if they hadn't of fought it, it wouldn't have happened.

But they felt that they were doing good and saving lives, and most importantly they were fighting a war on a quasi-meta-physical level that ordinary people couldn't see, and it was the right fight.

However there is always a hole in the Jedi mind set that the Sith seem to understand and exploit every time.

going back to the legends EU.

The thousands years war, several Jedi thought that the Jedi were limiting themselves by not using the whole force including the dark side of the force. These Jedi were expelled from the order, and branded as heretics by the Jedi who seek to destroy them. This causes a war that kills millions and darken the force. In the end the dark jedi are banished and become the founding members of the Sith.

The Sith Jedi war - The Sith return to the republic, and fight a fairly successful war until the Sith fracture and start killing each other. The Sith retreat to their home world of Korriban. The Jedi follow and in their determination to destroy the darkside attempt to perform genoside on all the Sith. The Sith Emperor escapes and his small group of followers eventually find a new home world, and dedicate their entire society to the concept of avenging the genocide that the Jedi attempted.

The Reven Malak Wars. The Mandos attack and the Jedi decide not to go to war for once. Except for a group of zealots that decide that the Mando's are some great evil and go to war. The Jedi commit acts of mass genocide to win the war, this leads to the rise of Revan and Malak who seek out the evil behind the Mandos and become seduced by the Sith Emperor, they return and go to war with the republic. for once the Jedi don't fight back and go into hiding, and Reven returns to the light and kills his former apprentice.

The Sith-Republic War - Just that, the Sith invade the republic and the Jedi decide to fight and form armies, this leads to a multi-generational war.

The Brotherhood of darkness versus the army of light - The Sith invade as an army, and the Jedi respond as an army the dark and the light fight across the galaxy killing billions and trillions. Eventually a Sith Lord named Bane wipes out the Sith army and goes into hiding.

The clone wars - A army of battledroids attack the republic and the Jedi sensing darkness go to war, eventually becoming more like generals and officers then defenders of the light. Their actions allow the Dark side to win.

What I'm getting to is that the Jedi are a far greater threat to the mundane non force sensitive light and the actual light side of the force then the Sith ever were. They continually go into and expand war based on a philosophy that any concept of the force outside of their own is inherently evil and needs to be destroyed.

the Jedi see themselves as good, and the Sith as evil

The Sith see themselves as the true believers of peace and order and justice int he galaxy and see the Jedi as corrupt ignorant and evil.

But the Jedi never learn that if they don't actually get inolved in the war then none of the evil events can happen.

If the Jedi decided to leave the Clone Wars to the grand army of the republic, They would have been secure from order 66 and Palpatine might not have succeeded.

If the Army of Light hadn't taken the battlefield against the Army of Darkness on Rusaan, the Sith would have turned on each other and destroyed each other.

If the original Jedi hadn't tried to wipe out the Sith on multiple occasions, The Sith might have become a completely different thing or not existed at all.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Ok, here's my argument against that.

The Jedi I believe saw the Clone Wars not as a war between the Seperatists and the Republic, but as a war against the coming darkness that they could all feel.

Remember they were gradually being clouded by the dark side of the force. So while they did these things, the Jedi didn't believe that they were perpetuating evil.

Of course on later reflection even Yoda realized that it was a war that if they hadn't of fought it, it wouldn't have happened.

But they felt that they were doing good and saving lives, and most importantly they were fighting a war on a quasi-meta-physical level that ordinary people couldn't see, and it was the right fight.

However there is always a hole in the Jedi mind set that the Sith seem to understand and exploit every time.

going back to the legends EU.

The thousands years war, several Jedi thought that the Jedi were limiting themselves by not using the whole force including the dark side of the force. These Jedi were expelled from the order, and branded as heretics by the Jedi who seek to destroy them. This causes a war that kills millions and darken the force. In the end the dark jedi are banished and become the founding members of the Sith.

The Sith Jedi war - The Sith return to the republic, and fight a fairly successful war until the Sith fracture and start killing each other. The Sith retreat to their home world of Korriban. The Jedi follow and in their determination to destroy the darkside attempt to perform genoside on all the Sith. The Sith Emperor escapes and his small group of followers eventually find a new home world, and dedicate their entire society to the concept of avenging the genocide that the Jedi attempted.

The Reven Malak Wars. The Mandos attack and the Jedi decide not to go to war for once. Except for a group of zealots that decide that the Mando's are some great evil and go to war. The Jedi commit acts of mass genocide to win the war, this leads to the rise of Revan and Malak who seek out the evil behind the Mandos and become seduced by the Sith Emperor, they return and go to war with the republic. for once the Jedi don't fight back and go into hiding, and Reven returns to the light and kills his former apprentice.

The Sith-Republic War - Just that, the Sith invade the republic and the Jedi decide to fight and form armies, this leads to a multi-generational war.

The Brotherhood of darkness versus the army of light - The Sith invade as an army, and the Jedi respond as an army the dark and the light fight across the galaxy killing billions and trillions. Eventually a Sith Lord named Bane wipes out the Sith army and goes into hiding.

The clone wars - A army of battledroids attack the republic and the Jedi sensing darkness go to war, eventually becoming more like generals and officers then defenders of the light. Their actions allow the Dark side to win.

What I'm getting to is that the Jedi are a far greater threat to the mundane non force sensitive light and the actual light side of the force then the Sith ever were. They continually go into and expand war based on a philosophy that any concept of the force outside of their own is inherently evil and needs to be destroyed.

the Jedi see themselves as good, and the Sith as evil

The Sith see themselves as the true believers of peace and order and justice int he galaxy and see the Jedi as corrupt ignorant and evil.

But the Jedi never learn that if they don't actually get inolved in the war then none of the evil events can happen.

If the Jedi decided to leave the Clone Wars to the grand army of the republic, They would have been secure from order 66 and Palpatine might not have succeeded.

If the Army of Light hadn't taken the battlefield against the Army of Darkness on Rusaan, the Sith would have turned on each other and destroyed each other.

If the original Jedi hadn't tried to wipe out the Sith on multiple occasions, The Sith might have become a completely different thing or not existed at all.

Yeah all these things are exactly my point. The bolded would all be things I would consider acts of evil, even if only due to negligence. And that's putting aside the starting of/participation in wars that end up killing billions or more that have no idea about any of these back-door philosophical issues. They've basically used the galaxy as a battleground for their crusade.

Aren't the intentions independent of the results? Anakin believed he was doing good when he turned. Palpatine believed he was bringing peace and order to the galaxy.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

Acting is something that for some reason I think I could do it if I just "tried" hard enough.

Despite no formal training or ever acting in my life before I have this weird irrational thought.

That audition, as quick as it is, brings me back to earth pretty quickly.

I've gotten the impression that the only people that think acting is hard is people who have only ever acted, actor's who've had other careers tend to say it's not that hard (stand there, say this, say it like this, now go relax in your trailer for a few hours while we set up the next shot).

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah all these things are exactly my point. The bolded would all be things I would consider acts of evil, even if only due to negligence. And that's putting aside the starting of/participation in wars that end up killing billions or more that have no idea about any of these back-door philosophical issues. They've basically used the galaxy as a battleground for their crusade.

Aren't the intentions independent of the results? Anakin believed he was doing good when he turned. Palpatine believed he was bringing peace and order to the galaxy.

Palpatine was the least deluded of them all.

Remember that he said that Jedi and Sith were almost identical in all aspects except how they viewed the force.

The Jedi believe that they gain power from knowledge

The Sith gain knowledge from power.

Both were in pursuit of a galaxy at peace. The Sith though believed that they were enlightened and superior and should rule over the inferiors. But they wanted peace and order.

The Jedi believed in the light side and good acts and compassion and leaving the rule of the galaxy to the will of the force. They wanted peace and liberty in the galaxy.

In the end to be honest both were fairly evil in terms of how they were willing to throw away the lives on non force sensitive people in pursuit of their philosophy becoming the dominant one.

[Coach]

Yeah, so couldn't pretty much every action with a lightsabre, Sith or Jedi, be viewed as evil?

Really, Order 66 would have been the least evil bad thing to happen to that Galaxy since the beginning, if only it also destroyed Palpatine and Vader.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah, so couldn't pretty much every action with a lightsabre, Sith or Jedi, be viewed as evil?

Really, Order 66 would have been the least evil bad thing to happen to that Galaxy since the beginning, if only it also destroyed Palpatine and Vader.

Perhaps.

I'm convinced that Anakin actually bought balance to the force when he betrayed the Jedi and allowed them to be slaughtered, leaving concentrated dark and concentrated light in what were equal levels.

Sidious and Yoda as the ubers

Kenobi and a crippled Vader as the other guys.

when Vader betrayed Sidious and then died leaving one light side guy Luke and the darkside hiding in the shadows again, it lead to the rise of a guy like Snoke if he is a force user.

[Coach]

I agree for sure. It's pretty obvious to me that Vader DID fulfill the prophecy, just not the way the Jedi thought or wanted.

It's strange how they could have been so blind to the wording of the prophecy in regards to "balance" and assume it meant destroying the Sith, thereby leaving an imbalance.

[fanman]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I agree for sure. It's pretty obvious to me that Vader DID fulfill the prophecy, just not the way the Jedi thought or wanted.

It's strange how they could have been so blind to the wording of the prophecy in regards to "balance" and assume it meant destroying the Sith, thereby leaving an imbalance.

Yes, was just going to say this! I also always thought he did bring balance. But Palpatine was correct in saying the Jedi were blinded by their arrogance, and they couldn`t accept that the force would be balanced by themselves being all but wiped out.

We know that there are only 2 Sith so it could never be balanced until it was basically down to the last Jedi.

[CaptainCrunch]

If you've ever read the Revenge of the Sith novel by Stover he has these short interludes that talk about the dark and the light and they are amazing.

The dark is generous.
Its first gift is concealment: our true faces lie in the dark beneath
our skins, our true hearts remain shadowed deeper still. But the
greatest concealment lies not in protecting our secret truths, but in
hiding from us the truths of others.
The dark protects us from what we dare not know.
Its second gift is comforting illusion: the ease of gentle dreams in
night's embrace, the beauty that imagination brings to what would
repel in day's harsh light. But the greatest of its comforts is the illusion
that the dark is temporary: that every night brings a new day.
Because it is day that is temporary.
Day is the illusion.
Its third gift is the light itself: as days are defined by the nights that
divide them, as stars are defined by the infinite black through which
they wheel, the dark embraces the light, and brings it forth from the
center of its own self.
With each victory of the light, it is the dark that wins.

The dark is generous, and it is patient.
It is the dark that seeds cruelty into justice, that drips contempt into
compassion, that poisons love with grains of doubt.
The dark can be patient, because the slightest drop of rain will
cause those seeds to sprout.
The rain will come, and the seeds will sprout, for the dark is the soil
in which they grow, and it is the clouds above them, and it waits behind
the star that gives them light.
The dark's patience is infinite.
Eventually, even stars burn out.

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins.
It always wins because it is everywhere.
It is in the wood that burns in your hearth, and in the kettle on the
fire; it is under your chair and under your table and under the sheets
on your bed. Walk in the midday sun and the dark is with you, attached to
the soles of your feet.
The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins—but
in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one lone candle is enough to
hold it back.
Love is more than a candle. Love
can ignite the stars.

[dammage79]

There was the purge of the Jedi temple for that Saber, then there was Mace Windu, the beheading of Dooku when he should have been arrested (Anakin knew full well the proper action and gave into the anger.) The masacre on Mustafar followed immediately by the battle with Obi-Wan. The Sabre was in Anakins possession when he killed (loosely using the term here, he didnt kill her on the spot but the action removed her will to live) Padme as well. There's a lot more Hate, Anger, Fear in that Saber than we're covering, all those events were really heavy in Anakins turn to the dark side. Then add to that the way Rey took down Ren in anger. Yeah it was anger, I think that was clear as day. whether or not that was from the connection with the saber itself and Rey gave in to it's "will" or if it was just an untrained Jedi not knowing how to control herself, it was still anger.

As for the how, I've seen a couple of references where Rey has a force ability called Phsycometry that allows her to see any items history by touching it. I couldn't image dealing with that much of an emotional load coursing through my mind and not giving into it at least a little. I also think thats why Luke looked so sad when he saw that thing. Like he knew full well what that thing was. A heavily tainted relic burdened with the atrocities of the past. A damning mark on the Skywalker name.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by dammage79

As for the how, I've seen a couple of references where Rey has a force ability called Phsycometry that allows her to see any items history by touching it.

So you just know that she is going to touch Vader's mask at some point.

[MrMastodonFarm]

I don't know what is going on in this thread but I wish it was about The Force Awakens.