2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by ST20

I don't get this line of thinking. This means that no trade in the history of trades are bad because the market at the time dictated the price. You can choose to hold out on trading someone until the market changes.

I also don't buy that Zadarov needed to be traded at this time because of the trade request causing Lockeroom issues. Yes, it probably annoyed guys in the room (as it should) but they are all professionals. Some of them have borderline trade requests of their own. There's never been any indication from players or anyone around the team that he is a bad teammate.

Conroy allowed circumstances around the request to force his hand which is reactionary in nature and typically not good business. I don't think the return is that bad but he definitely could have gotten more with patience.

I think almost everything stated here is simplistic.

A GM can set a price for an asset, but he will only get what the market will provide. This can go both ways sometimes they get more, if there are multiple teams interested and are competing with one another for said asset, sometimes it’s less. Sometimes it is less to the point the GM may decide to not move the asset at all, Mike Cammalleri being an example. Or Brock Boeser for a more recent example. Boeser reported to have asked for a trade last year and evidently the Canucks didn’t get what they would have wanted.

I also don’t see the correlation you’ve made that there are no bad trades if the market dictates the price. GM’s probably accept deals all the time that they, in retrospect, would like to have taken another package. Would the Flames have been better off had they taken Carolina’s Tkachuck offer? Who knows. There are far too many variables to link a successful trade to the market price at the time a trade is executed.

Zadorov didn’t ‘need’ to move but it’s clear the Flames wanted to free up cap space in order to provide them with flexibility to make internal moves as they see fit but also be able to accept salary coming back. Plus they moved the player without having to retain, which, once again, provides them with flexibility in how they deal with their other assets. Pretty easy to see this trade was about positioning them to be able to do a lot more than they could have if they decided to keep Zadorov to hopefully get a slightly better return three months down the road. The Zadorov deal isn’t the one to to get bent out of shape over.

[Bonded]

I also wonder if the Flames are chasing Bear hard

[Enoch Root]

We have been through this, but it needs to be said again:

If you look at just the assets (3rd + 5th), the return for Zadorov is underwhelming. I think the majority would agree with that. But in a cap world, you have to factor in the financial component.

The Flames freed up $3.75M in cap space. That is probably worth a 2nd, and at the very least, a 3rd. Let's be conservative, and call it a 3rd. That makes the return:

3rd + 3rd + 5th

Two 3rds approximately = a 2nd (we have seen this several times on draft day)

Zadorov return = 3rd + 3rd + 5th = 2nd + 5th

I still wouldn't call that awesome, but I would agree that it is fair

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ST20

In my opinion the variance is what people are annoyed with. When you trade that 5D (who would be a 4 on many teams) makes a big difference. There seems to be many contenders looking to add size in the back end due to underperformance of the team or injuries. The reason why the trade had to happen now was not convincing and if they were patient they could have gotten more. I don't see a pressing need for why it needed to happen now.

Last year, a total of 22 players making more than $3.5M were traded between December 1st and the trade deadline. That includes players that were included as cap dumps to non-contenders (5) and players that were traded twice but does not include LTIR players. So, contenders collectively acquired around 16 players worth $3.5M or more. Almost all of those included salary retention (13).

The Flames, with Zadorov, were trying to move 4, with 3 slots for salary retention. Why did it have to happen now? Hard to say, but the Flames are headed toward the trade deadline trying to be responsible for 20-30% of last years’ total movement between Dec 1 and the trade deadline by themselves. And they’re not the only team looking to move guys.

Zadorov was the smallest fish in the pool of trade bait. You can ask “why did it happen now” but there’s no indication it would have been easier or any better moving him later.

For what it’s worth, there were only 3 players out of the 22 making more than $3.5M that returned a 2nd round pick or more without salary retention and without a significant cap-dump coming back. 2 of them were defencemen, and both of them play on the top pairing for their team.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I also wonder if the Flames are chasing Bear hard

In UCP Alberta, you chase Bear?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I also wonder if the Flames are chasing Bear hard

It would make a lot of sense. I could see both Bear and PoolParty as targets for the Flames after they inevitably trade some of Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Duehr, Greer, and/or Dube.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It would make a lot of sense. I could see both Bear and PoolParty as targets for the Flames after they inevitably trade some of Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Duehr, Greer, and/or Dube.

Yup. Bear will realistically have a shot at top 4 minutes with the Flames. Poolparty might be harder to guarantee ice time too unless Dube is traded.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It would make a lot of sense. I could see both Bear and PoolParty as targets for the Flames after they inevitably trade some of Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Duehr, Greer, and/or Dube.

Why would Duehr or Greer be traded?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We have been through this, but it needs to be said again:

If you look at just the assets (3rd + 5th), the return for Zadorov is underwhelming. I think the majority would agree with that. But in a cap world, you have to factor in the financial component.

The Flames freed up $3.75M in cap space. That is probably worth a 2nd, and at the very least, a 3rd. Let's be conservative, and call it a 3rd. That makes the return:

3rd + 3rd + 5th

Two 3rds approximately = a 2nd (we have seen this several times on draft day)

Zadorov return = 3rd + 3rd + 5th = 2nd + 5th

I still wouldn't call that awesome, but I would agree that it is fair

Freeing up $3.75 of unproductive cap space is likely worth a 2nd/3rd.

Freeing up $3.75M of cap space for player who is basically worth that contract does not equate to "an additional draft pick value".

When Boston traded Hall to Chicago for basically nothing say, "we just saved $5M of cap in each of the next two seasons, that's like we got two first round picks for him"?

Of course not, because Hall was generally considered worth that contract.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Freeing up $3.75 of unproductive cap space is likely worth a 2nd/3rd.

Freeing up $3.75M of cap space for player who is basically worth that contract does not equate to "an additional draft pick value".

When Boston traded Hall to Chicago for basically nothing say, "we just saved $5M of cap in each of the next two seasons, that's like we got two first round picks for him"?

Of course not, because Hall was generally considered worth that contract.

Your argument makes no sense - the space is worth what it is worth. What you gave up to acquire it, does not change its inherent value.

The return for Hall was the cap space. Because cap space has value.

The return for Zadorov was 3rd + 5th + cap space

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Freeing up $3.75 of unproductive cap space is likely worth a 2nd/3rd.

Freeing up $3.75M of cap space for player who is basically worth that contract does not equate to "an additional draft pick value".

When Boston traded Hall to Chicago for basically nothing say, "we just saved $5M of cap in each of the next two seasons, that's like we got two first round picks for him"?

Of course not, because Hall was generally considered worth that contract.

If Taylor Hall was worth that contract, why did they get nothing for him?

Cap space.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Why would Duehr or Greer be traded?

Greer is an upcoming UFA, and teams could use playoff depth. I like him a lot, and if we could sign him to 3–4 years I would be happy, but I don't think a Greer extension is a priority for the Flames.

As for Duehr, he seems to be the odd man out of the lineup right now, and I don't see him getting better sitting in the press-box.

I think they would both be similar trade targets to when we traded a 5th for Carpenter.

[shutout]

If the general media consensus is that Tanev is worth a second than it would follow that Zadorov would be worth a third and that Hanifin should be worth a first. Top pairing to third pairing the return should be commiserate.

[gilligans_off]

Greer reminds me of Eric Nystrom. Good for what he is, but you can’t over pay for it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ST20

I don't get this line of thinking. This means that no trade in the history of trades are bad because the market at the time dictated the price. You can choose to hold out on trading someone until the market changes.

I also don't buy that Zadarov needed to be traded at this time because of the trade request causing Lockeroom issues. Yes, it probably annoyed guys in the room (as it should) but they are all professionals. Some of them have borderline trade requests of their own. There's never been any indication from players or anyone around the team that he is a bad teammate.

Conroy allowed circumstances around the request to force his hand which is reactionary in nature and typically not good business. I don't think the return is that bad but he definitely could have gotten more with patience.

Burke famously held out on trading Cammaleri because prices were bad. Result - he got nothing.

It's been said a few times but it wasn't just the trade request that rankled people in the room. It was his comments impugning teammates for not liking "hard" coaches. Plus the trade request had effects outside the room too.

You don't know that he could have gotten more anyway. Sometimes, while you hold out, teams make other arrnagements - get their next best option for a D.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by shutout

If the general media consensus is that Tanev is worth a second than it would follow that Zadorov would be worth a third and that Hanifin should be worth a first. Top pairing to third pairing the return should be commiserate.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1732480287869989261

https://twitter.com/user/status/1730627741941195053

It could be my rose colored glasses, but I think he's worth more than a 2nd.

[Tron_fdc]

We traded a first to free up space to sign Kadri.

Cap space is VERY valuable.

We should be trying to duplicate that Monahan trade as much as possible right now.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Greer is an upcoming UFA, and teams could use playoff depth. I like him a lot, and if we could sign him to 3–4 years I would be happy, but I don't think a Greer extension is a priority for the Flames.

As for Duehr, he seems to be the odd man out of the lineup right now, and I don't see him getting better sitting in the press-box.

I think they would both be similar trade targets to when we traded a 5th for Carpenter.

Trade the guys that will generate a return, like Mangiapane and Dube, if you are wanting to move bodies.

Then you need the Duehrs and Greers to fill the lineup.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by shutout

If the general media consensus is that Tanev is worth a second than it would follow that Zadorov would be worth a third and that Hanifin should be worth a first. Top pairing to third pairing the return should be commiserate.

Sure. Except the media doesn't have a clue - they are not experts on this, and their opinions do not define value.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It could be my rose colored glasses, but I think he's worth more than a 2nd.

It isn't rose coloured glasses.

During the regular season, Tanev is a really good, defensive defenseman.

During the playoffs, Tanev is the type of player that turns a good team into a championship contender. In playoff mode, Tanev is incredibly valuable. He is a warrior, a leader, and (with playoff rules in place), an EXCELLENT defender.

Media guys may not see it (especially media guys that want their team to acquire him - some bias there), but GMs know what he is worth.