Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The party needs a new leader. She's not a lot different from O'Toole and Scheer in that her opponent was practically handing her the election and she just couldn't make herself a compelling enough of an alternative. The NDP has made some ground but I would expect diminishing returns from now on as long as they continue to trot Rachel out as their leader.

Punting Otoole for PP was a mistake. The same thing could happen to the NDP where you get someone from the environmental wing of the party in and move them back to the left depriving Alberta of any opposition the same way the Cons have allowed Trudeau to run unchecked because of the lack of a Center right option.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Firebot

You are part of the problem and part of this division. By continuously pointing that Conservative voters are dumb over and over, you are doing the exact same thing you accuse them of.

Your refusal to accept that politics are not black and white on all issues as you do (see christofacist thread and linking it to voting UCP / CPC), you create that same environment you accuse others of doing.

If you can't see why the NDP brand in general is toxic in Alberta and you cannot fathom to understand why, when you can't see why Notley has to continuously make these types of statement due to Singh because of the NDP affiliation, I can't help you.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/i-di...ance-1.6397351

She only has to make those statements because right wing "media" has convinced their audience it is something to be concerned about. It isn't, and their time in government proved that. But it's her fault people are ignorant? Crazy thought here, maybe it's the BS media outlets spreading lies, and we should do something about that? An educated electorate is essential to a functioning democracy.

Lets be realistic here, it won't matter who runs against the Conservatives, what their ideas or background are, so long as they don't represent whatever ruling party that has been anointed as the bearers of blue for this cycle, they will be forever smeared by lies and disinformation, deceiving voters who then vote against their own best interests. You think it's an accident Smith cozies up to theses clown shows? She knows they'll do her lying for her, and hand her the votes.

Hrmm, yes, but it's my fault for calling a duck a duck. Sorry Alberta, I really ####ed up on this one.

[iggy_oi]

I think what Firebot is getting at is that you should be less divisive and just start calling people who disagree with you conservative apologists.

And obviously the ANDP are toxic to Albertans, otherwise they would have gotten 52% of the popular vote instead of just 44%.

[btimbit]

I get it though. Most of the "NDP is evil" folks can't even give you a valid reason, it's almost always made up nonsense. Now we have a Government that actively works against it's people, not hard to see why some people like Fuzz get so frustrated when people completely fail to see that

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

She owns a restaurant but wears open-toed shoes?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1668058289601679361

I am sure this is a coincidence.

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/25707994/high-river

Time on REALTOR.ca
22 hours

[Ozy_Flame]

The NDP brand is not toxic in Alberta. To have the kind of support from a historically left-wing party - and grow it to the strong opposition it is today over the span of eight years - is nothing less than remarkable. If it was toxic, then we wouldn't see that brand take the two major cities in the province. To call it toxic is myopic at best.

It also shows the evolving demographic base in Alberta, including having more progressive values with new Albertans coming every day and with a greater urban/rural divide.

Even then, the UCP landed on a gold mine when they came in to power in 2019 - an upswing in oil prices and a recovery of the industry, which was in no way, shape or form their own doing as they'd like to tell everyone. They simply got lucky with global market forces. The NDP were saddled with the oil crash before them and, IMO, did a fairly admirable job for having the chips dealt to them as a novice party.

But it comes down to the NDP having far more eggshells to not crush when they walk versus what the Conservatives can get away with and still get support. The middle vote is the wildcard, particularly for moderates in Alberta.

Then you have - what I believe - is a fractious governing party where divides are showing. I doubt a 'unified' conservative party like the UCP can last. But with the devolution of progressive conservatism towards neoliberal populism, only time will tell.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I get it though. Most of the "NDP is evil" folks can't even give you a valid reason, it's almost always made up nonsense. Now we have a Government that actively works against it's people, not hard to see why some people like Fuzz get so frustrated when people completely fail to see that

Before the election I remember seeing the news interview someone. They said they were concerned about the NDP and the increase of corporate taxes. The NDP had promised to reduce or get rid of small business taxes, while increasing corporate rates. This person ran a small business. This is what I mean by voting against their own interests because they are so poorly informed.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Before the election I remember seeing the news interview someone. They said they were concerned about the NDP and the increase of corporate taxes. The NDP had promised to reduce or get rid of small business taxes, while increasing corporate rates. This person ran a small business. This is what I mean by voting against their own interests because they are so poorly informed.

Yup. And somehow it's the NDP's fault for not catering to absolute morons.

I'm surprised the guy didn't just mumble something about Trudeau

[Yoho]

It’s must be tough to be so much smarter than the majority of Alberta voters.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Yoho

It’s must be so tough to be so much smarter than the majority of Alberta voters.

It is. It really is.

[Fuzz]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1667741462623141889


Not just the US. "Acting accordingly" is where I've gone, which is to stop pretending morons can have their minds changed by facts. I'm deeply sorry that offends some of you.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://twitter.com/user/status/1667741462623141889


Not just the US. "Acting accordingly" is where I've gone, which is to stop pretending morons can have their minds changed by facts. I'm deeply sorry that offends some of you.

I'll take up the opposite side here, even though I have a hard time abiding by what I'm going to say. It's easy to fall into this though. And most importantly, it's what they want.

They want us to wallow around in the muck with them. If we're all dirty ####ing pigs then it will be harder to smell all the #### in their pants. It will be harder for us to realize just how profoundly ugly they are. If we're taking bludgeon views on everything, they're free to start being louder about the stuff they were formerly too ashamed of: they're becoming less afraid of showing how racist, how bigoted, how insanely short sighted they are. They are gaining the ability to use their utter ignorance as a shield because they don't see a way out of the stupidity.

I am not saying you have to embrace these unwashed heathens, but I am saying that we should strive to do better. Falling prey to their #### isn't a solution, it only emboldens them, even if our heightened level of discourse gives them a perceived advantage of being able to mud sling. Theyre only able to because they're already coated in mud, and they want us to get in the mud too.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I think what Firebot is getting at is that you should be less divisive and just start calling people who disagree with you conservative apologists.

And obviously the ANDP are toxic to Albertans, otherwise they would have gotten 52% of the popular vote instead of just 44%.

Imagine screaming criticisms about the party you hate, spreading misinformation, and calling people names any time they do anything but join you in criticizing the party you hate (from praising that party to just mentioning any other party for any other reason), and then coming into another politics thread to call someone else part of the problem hahahaha.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Yoho

It’s must be tough to be so much smarter than the majority of Alberta voters.

It feels like talking to a wall sometimes.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Wormius

It feels like talking to a wall sometimes.

Uncharitable. The typical wall is several orders of magnitude more useful to society.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Imagine screaming criticisms about the party you hate, spreading misinformation, and calling people names any time they do anything but join you in criticizing the party you hate (from praising that party to just mentioning any other party for any other reason), and then coming into another politics thread to call someone else part of the problem hahahaha.

When you’ve lost every argument cling to the “misinformation card”

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

I don't think Notley's personal brand is THAT negative. I would think she outruns the brand of the party more generally. I'm not convinced she's a particularly good politician, mind you, and I am convinced that the ANDP completely botched their entire campaign. But replacing her as leader doesn't make a ton of sense to me unless they have someone else with comparable name recognition like maybe Nenshi.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I don't think Notley's personal brand is THAT negative. I would think she outruns the brand of the party more generally. I'm not convinced she's a particularly good politician, mind you, and I am convinced that the ANDP completely botched their entire campaign. But replacing her as leader doesn't make a ton of sense to me unless they have someone else with comparable name recognition like maybe Nenshi.

I hear that Nenshi is interested in Provincial politics, but as yet is not interested in the NDP or associations with the federal NDP brand. This is second hand knowledge.

Maybe that changes but I don't think so.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The NDP brand is not toxic in Alberta. To have the kind of support from a historically left-wing party - and grow it to the strong opposition it is today over the span of eight years - is nothing less than remarkable. If it was toxic, then we wouldn't see that brand take the two major cities in the province. To call it toxic is myopic at best.

It also shows the evolving demographic base in Alberta, including having more progressive values with new Albertans coming every day and with a greater urban/rural divide.

Even then, the UCP landed on a gold mine when they came in to power in 2019 - an upswing in oil prices and a recovery of the industry, which was in no way, shape or form their own doing as they'd like to tell everyone. They simply got lucky with global market forces. The NDP were saddled with the oil crash before them and, IMO, did a fairly admirable job for having the chips dealt to them as a novice party.

But it comes down to the NDP having far more eggshells to not crush when they walk versus what the Conservatives can get away with and still get support. The middle vote is the wildcard, particularly for moderates in Alberta.

Then you have - what I believe - is a fractious governing party where divides are showing. I doubt a 'unified' conservative party like the UCP can last. But with the devolution of progressive conservatism towards neoliberal populism, only time will tell.

Honestly, outside of the toxic branding portion of the argument, I am in agreement with you

The Alberta NDP came in at an opportunistic time when oil was crashing, Prentice told Alberta to look in the mirror, and the right was split, with people disenchanted and voting for an alternative as a protest. The Alberta NDP surging in in 2015 is no different than when Quebec voted NDP en masse and got 59 seats in 2011.

To their credit Notley and the Alberta switched on stances including royalty reviews and made them a more palatable choice for Albertans, despite the NDP name. The right united under UPC put Kenney and later Smith in charge, choosing to become more radical.

The Alberta NDP has increased their share of the vote in both 2019 and 2021.

The NDP in Alberta has proven to be capable in governing while the UPC have proven the opposite especially with Smith. I firmly believe the party would do much better without its attachment to the federal NDP. As you state the middle vote is the wild card, and in this case, there just wasn't enough that swung to the NDP.

Unfortunately though some here would rather gives excuses and offer zero of value (state that Albertans / conservatives are dumb) than find a solution. And we wonder how Smith got elected, and just attribute it to the majority of Albertans being dumb folks rather than understanding how to win in a province which overall leans more right compared to the rest of Canada.

Despite several posters on this page choosing to double down on dumb partisan games, I voted NDP (and federal Liberal as recently as 2015) and can see past the partisanship lines (yes it's hard to fathom for some due to my current hate for the current federal government).

But as can be seen in the election thread that became a tire fire of epic proportions and here when someone dares to go against the echo chamber, even if we voted on the same party, time to dismiss. All I stated was what the party could have done to be elected rather than be 2nd place and see what happens.

At least you replied with a valuable and concise argument against it (well this time versus the other thread where you told me to go to 4chan and telegram)

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

That's all political threads on this forum now, though, for the most part. It's basically just a bunch of posts trying to sardonically dunk on the CPC / Poilievre and high fiving each other about it in the Canadian Politics thread too.

In fairness, there's not a whole lot to debate when it comes to Smith's UCP right now.