Flames' Pride Night slotted for March 28 vs. LA

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

Living in Victoria I'd say they have it the same as everyone else.

“Go #### off and be outraged somewhere else losers”

- Conversation continues somewhere else
- Immediately finds the new place the conversation is

“Maybe go F yourself and that way you can stay bitter and hate yourself by yourself.”

- Conversation moves yet again to somewhere else with still nobody giving him attention
- Finds the new place the conversation is and immediately starts acting dismissive of the conversation again

You sure have a lot of hate and a very strong need to share it, huh?

[cam_calderon]

I won't defend the first two statements, but the third is hardly hateful. Whether it's accurate is another story.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by kipperiggy

Yeah, I am too.

We're allowed to dislike the main player the Flames got back for any number of reasons. Being told to shut up when we chime in on a discussion board shows that the ones acting like two year olds aren't the ones you think.

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Yeah, those queers have it easy.

I'm fully on the side of people being free to be whoever they are, and with whomever they want to.

All I'm saying is on the grand scale of atrocities that people have had to endure, someone not wearing a jersey is literally at the bottom.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm fully on the side of people being free to be whoever they are, and with whomever they want to.

All I'm saying is on the grand scale of atrocities that people have had to endure, someone not wearing a jersey is literally at the bottom.

Oh I got what you meant. I was trying to be tongue in cheek.

But as I said I don't think it's fari to look at as an isolated thing. Like yeah, I'll march and do everything I can to prevent the GoA from doing what they announced yesterday but when smaller less consequential things like Pride Nights are contentious, he sort of stacks on that I and my other queer siblings aren't even welcome at a hockey game etc.

And generally I don't think it's a good look to tell marginalized communities how to feel about a thing.

[ben voyonsdonc]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I think it’s fair to be bummed that Kuzmenko wouldn’t wear the Pride jersey. It was a point of pride (no pun intended) that the Flames were unequivocal in their support last year and its disappointing that it isn’t the case now.

It isn’t “just a jersey” - it is a message to queer people that they are welcome. As a queer fan, I’ve heard the slurs directed at players people don’t like. Hockey, as a sport, has a history of homophobic behaviour both verbal and physical. The hazing that has occurred at various levels has involved doing a lot of homophobic stuff as a way to shame and embarrass younger players. Wearing a jersey is the smallest possible gesture to show queer fans and players that they are welcome in the sport.

At the same time, I welcome Kuzmenko to the team. I hope he enjoys his time here. I want him to be successful as a Flame.

[KelVarnsen]

Kuz didn't wear the Pride jersey last season but he did sign at least one Pride jersey after the game and pose for photos with the Pride jersey.

At least that's what I read about it last year.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Makes about as much sense as not supporting gender non-transition for minors. It's not drugs or cigarettes or alcohol. It's health care.

I disagree, it isn't just healthcare.

Here's why I'm against it:

1. “Gender-affirming” healthcare is the only area of medicine where patients make their own diagnosis and prescribe their own remedy.
2. What is diagnosed as gender dysphoria in minors often manifests as a fluid experience, with some patients eventually identifying with their birth sex as they mature.
3. Hormone therapy and surgery entail substantial risks and irreversible consequences. Minors may struggle to comprehend the gravity of these ramifications.
4. Physicians frighten parents with warnings of their child’s suicide while convincing parents that there are no long-term effects to puberty blockers and hormone treatments.

Gender-affirming healthcare should be available to adults. Ones that are fully capable of comprehending the gravity of their decision.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I disagree, it isn't just healthcare.

Here's why I'm against it:

1. “Gender-affirming” healthcare is the only area of medicine where patients make their own diagnosis and prescribe their own remedy.
2. What is diagnosed as gender dysphoria in minors often manifests as a fluid experience, with some patients eventually identifying with their birth sex as they mature.
3. Hormone therapy and surgery entail substantial risks and irreversible consequences. Minors may struggle to comprehend the gravity of these ramifications.
4. Physicians frighten parents with warnings of their child’s suicide while convincing parents that there are no long-term effects to puberty blockers and hormone treatments.

Gender-affirming healthcare should be available to adults. Ones that are fully capable of comprehending the gravity of their decision.

There is a lot of misinformation in there.
What you primarily don't seem to understand is that getting a physician to approve any sort of gender affirming care is an extremely lengthy process. Even for adults. You don't experiment with gender (a social contract) and walk up to a pharmacy and get on hormones. While gender fluidity and experimentation is definitely very real, folks who medically transition generally aren't making medical decisions for themselves but more of a social fluidity.

No one, absolutely no one, is getting top or bottom surgery in Canada if they're a legal minor. That's why that portion of Smith's policy indicates that it's rooted misinformation and fear mongering. It doesn't happen. In large part because of some of your concerns and what I've outlined above.

Not to mention the waitlist for Top surgery in Alberta right now is about 3 years. Folks aren't walking into a clinic one day and getting surgical procedures.

Puberty blockers def can be reversed. If someone goes off them the changes occur. Which is why it's important for teens to have access to them, under medical supervision.

This government clearly has no faith in the professionalism and expertise of experts like Physicians and chooses to be willfully ignorant on the heaps of peer reviewed research in several areas, be it this one, curriculum development, harm reduction etc.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“Go #### off and be outraged somewhere else losers”

- Conversation continues somewhere else
- Immediately finds the new place the conversation is

“Maybe go F yourself and that way you can stay bitter and hate yourself by yourself.”

- Conversation moves yet again to somewhere else with still nobody giving him attention
- Finds the new place the conversation is and immediately starts acting dismissive of the conversation again

You sure have a lot of hate and a very strong need to share it, huh?

Yeah, some unsavory takes for sure that didn't stop in the other thread.

Those don't deserve an apology. Those are takes of people with a lack of empathy and understanding seeing the larger issue through a very narrow lens of their own, very different, experience.

If you haven't been/lived in their shoes, maybe you don't understand. Maybe this isn't them having "a sensitivity threshold of a 2 year old" but that it's an issue that doesn't hit as close for you as it does for them, but it doesn't mean every one should adopt your perspective based on your life experience and subjective definitions of what's worth being upset about and what isn't.

That's just someone unapologetically typing out their very selfish line of thinking. Maybe expanding your mind and try to grasp the issue from an outside perspective instead of claiming it doesn't matter and telling people to shut up.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Yeah, some unsavory takes for sure that didn't stop in the other thread.

Those don't deserve an apology. Those are takes of people with a lack of empathy and understanding seeing the larger issue through a very narrow lens of their own, very different, experience.

If you haven't been/lived in their shoes, maybe you don't understand. Maybe this isn't them having "a sensitivity threshold of a 2 year old" but that it's an issue that doesn't hit as close for you as it does for them, but it doesn't mean every one should adopt your perspective based on your life experience and subjective definitions of what's worth being upset about and what isn't.

That's just someone unapologetically typing out their very selfish line of thinking. Maybe expanding your mind and try to grasp the issue from an outside perspective instead of claiming it doesn't matter and telling people to shut up.

lol. You think Pepsi is the problem in the above conversation?

[Kidder]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

lol. You think Pepsi is the problem in the above conversation?

Pepsi is responding to MH23. Summarizing their points.

TrentCrimm had a good response there.

It reminds me of a response from a poster in this or a related thread a while back that makes me chuckle. Along the lines of “If I were gay I would/wouldn’t want…” and then stating their stance on the jersey issue.

Like taking their current self, in 2024, and toggling their orientation switch, and having insight into the world.

People are comprised of their lived experiences through very different eras. Progress was made because of uncomfortable situations confronted and challenged years ago. You are not you, if you had lived through it.

But those who understand that, and try to view it through that lens while knowing they can’t fully grasp it, are doing the work necessary to help improve the culture.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Yeah it wasn't responding directly to Pepsi lol, it's building off Pepsi's post in response to whatever that nonsense was that I read on the last page.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

There is a lot of misinformation in there.
What you primarily don't seem to understand is that getting a physician to approve any sort of gender affirming care is an extremely lengthy process. Even for adults. You don't experiment with gender (a social contract) and walk up to a pharmacy and get on hormones. While gender fluidity and experimentation is definitely very real, folks who medically transition generally aren't making medical decisions for themselves but more of a social fluidity.

No one, absolutely no one, is getting top or bottom surgery in Canada if they're a legal minor. That's why that portion of Smith's policy indicates that it's rooted misinformation and fear mongering. It doesn't happen. In large part because of some of your concerns and what I've outlined above.

Not to mention the waitlist for Top surgery in Alberta right now is about 3 years. Folks aren't walking into a clinic one day and getting surgical procedures.

Puberty blockers def can be reversed. If someone goes off them the changes occur. Which is why it's important for teens to have access to them, under medical supervision.

This government clearly has no faith in the professionalism and expertise of experts like Physicians and chooses to be willfully ignorant on the heaps of peer reviewed research in several areas, be it this one, curriculum development, harm reduction etc.

Okay, so no one is getting a top to bottom surgery in Canada right now. Does it mean that there aren't people pushing for it to become available? again, I'm against it being an option for anyone that's not an adult.

As far as puberty blockers, GnRH might have a long-term effect on:

• Growth spurts
• Bone growth
• Bone density
• Fertility

From my understanding, the main goal of gender-affirming healthcare is to help those that suffer significant psychological harm from gender dysphoria. Therapy and the provision of mental-health support should come long before surgery and puberty blockers. This would allow minors the necessary time and space to explore their gender identity while ensuring that they have access to the appropriate mental-health resources. Then, when they turn 18, they can do whatever would make them happy in the long run.

Anyway, this is a Flames forum. I think you guys understand where I'm coming from.

[PepsiFree]

I don’t.

[Leo]

MOD EDIT: Deleted terrible post

[KelVarnsen]

Wtf

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

There is a lot of misinformation in there.
What you primarily don't seem to understand is that getting a physician to approve any sort of gender affirming care is an extremely lengthy process.

It used to be. But standards have been dramatically lowered in recent years.

In interviews with Reuters, doctors and other staff at 18 gender clinics across the country described their processes for evaluating patients. None described anything like the months-long assessments de Vries and her colleagues adopted in their research.

At most of the clinics, a team of professionals – typically a social worker, a psychologist and a doctor specializing in adolescent medicine or endocrinology – initially meets with the parents and child for two hours or more to get to know the family, their medical history and their goals for treatment. They also discuss the benefits and risks of treatment options. Seven of the clinics said that if they don’t see any red flags and the child and parents are in agreement, they are comfortable prescribing puberty blockers or hormones based on the first visit,depending on the age of the child.

It’s much the same here in Canada:

Another Trans Youth Can! survey found that five of 10 clinics do not have psychologists or psychiatrists assess patients before prescribing puberty blockers or hormones.

But Lawson said those five still have social workers or other professionals do mental-health screening. At CHEO, such assessments are followed by two or more doctor appointments and then a two-hour session with an endocrinologist like her, she said.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...ender-children

This is a far cry from the 6+ month of assessment that was the standard 15 years ago when protocols for gender dysphoria were first being established.

Gender care experts themselves have raised alarms bells about rapidly declining standards of due diligence.

Dr Marci Bowers, a surgeon specializing in transgender procedures who became WPATH’s president in September, said in an interview that the organization is trying to find a middle ground between “those who basically would have hormones and surgeries available at a vending machine, let’s say, versus others who think that you need to go through all sorts of hoops and hurdles.”

This is a highly-politicized issue. And while the views of firebrand conservatives aren’t supported by science, neither are those of trans activists.

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

No one, absolutely no one, is getting top or bottom surgery in Canada if they're a legal minor. That's why that portion of Smith's policy indicates that it's rooted misinformation and fear mongering. It doesn't happen. In large part because of some of your concerns and what I've outlined above.

Not to mention the waitlist for Top surgery in Alberta right now is about 3 years. Folks aren't walking into a clinic one day and getting surgical procedures.

Correct. Smith is pandering and fear-mongering on that issue.

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Puberty blockers def can be reversed. If someone goes off them the changes occur. Which is why it's important for teens to have access to them, under medical supervision.

Things aren’t anywhere near that clearcut.

Puberty blockers and sex hormones do not have U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval for children’s gender care. No clinical trials have established their safety for such off-label use. The drugs’ long-term effects on fertility and sexual function remain unclear. And in 2016, the FDA ordered makers of puberty blockers to add a warning about psychiatric problems to the drugs’ label after the agency received several reports of suicidal thoughts in children who were taking them.

More broadly, no large-scale studies have tracked people who received gender-related medical care as children to determine how many remained satisfied with their treatment as they aged and how many eventually regretted transitioning. The same lack of clarity holds true for the contentious issue of detransitioning, when a patient stops or reverses the transition process.

The National Institutes of Health, the U.S. government agency responsible for medical and public health research, told Reuters that “the evidence is limited on whether these treatments pose short- or long-term health risks for transgender and other gender-diverse adolescents.” The NIH has funded a comprehensive study to examine mental health and other outcomes for about 400 transgender youths treated at four U.S. children’s hospitals. However, long-term results are years away and may not address concerns such as fertility or cognitive development.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...ansyouth-care/

The latest meta-studies in Europe have also not shown any conclusive evidence on the safety and efficacy of hormone-blockers, prompting Finland and Sweden to halt their use for minors, and the Netherlands and UK to impose tighter restrictions on them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuac...h=38327b3b7efb

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

This government clearly has no faith in the professionalism and expertise of experts like Physicians and chooses to be willfully ignorant on the heaps of peer reviewed research in several areas, be it this one, curriculum development, harm reduction etc.

Again, it’s experts in the field who are raising concerns about the haste with which medical interventions in minors are often being carried out today.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/963269?form=fpf

Smith and the people she’s pandering to are idiots. But to date, there simply isn’t enough data to make confident assessments about the safety of hormone blockers in minors.

I hope Canada follows the prudent European route of gender care grounded in empirical data and doesn’t get sucked into the politicized American approach. We can support gender affirmation without abandoning the rigorous assessment process that used to be standard, or ignoring the questions around the long-term effects of medical interventions in minors.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Okay, so no one is getting a top to bottom surgery in Canada right now. Does it mean that there aren't people pushing for it to become available? again, I'm against it being an option for anyone that's not an adult.

As far as puberty blockers, GnRH might have a long-term effect on:

• Growth spurts
• Bone growth
• Bone density
• Fertility

From my understanding, the main goal of gender-affirming healthcare is to help those that suffer significant psychological harm from gender dysphoria. Therapy and the provision of mental-health support should come long before surgery and puberty blockers. This would allow minors the necessary time and space to explore their gender identity while ensuring that they have access to the appropriate mental-health resources. Then, when they turn 18, they can do whatever would make them happy in the long run.

Anyway, this is a Flames forum. I think you guys understand where I'm coming from.

Honest question: do you know a transperson?

No one is arguing for kinds to have surgical procedures. No one. No one educated and well versed in the issues or the research.

Again, no treatment for anyone is in a vacuum. People can't walk up to pharmacy and ask for OTC hormones. therapy and other clinical but non medical interventions are part of a proper care team. Hell, I'm on antidepressants adn I couldn't even get that prescription until I'd been in therapy for years and took a leave from work it was so bad.

Furthermore as part of that care team any sort of medical (non surgical) intervention is discussed with all parties and proceeds under physician supervision. My meds have side effects, that's why I regularly see my doc when my script rns out.

so circling back, it's healthcare and not as entirely different for folks who need it as some make it out to be

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Leo

MOD EDIT: Deleted

Always nice to read a post from a Flames Alumni, Theo. Did you get to Tucker when he was here?