CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by getbak

One good thing about that report is that the clean-up costs are much lower than the $300+ million that others had estimated. That timeline for the cleanup, though, really makes CalgaryNext unviable.

I went to a STH Q&A in 2011 (before the Flames bought the Stamps) where King said the new arena would be "a couple of blocks north of here" ("here" being the Saddledome). Let's dust off those plans and get going.


For selfish reasons, I've always been in favour of a Victoria Park location.

What I don't get is the Flames should have been buying up the land between the Stampede Grounds and the tracks years ago. How long have they had the new arena on their agenda and how much more money are they going to spend at today's prices?

[The Ditch]

I've said it many times before, flames can go pound sand, public money for stadiums is NEVER realised and good for the city, let alone 1.5 BILLION dollars, get the F out out of here then, move them to London, geez, they have a lot of nerve especially for a team that has made the playoffs 6 times in the last 20 years.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I wonder if the Flames are going to relocate? That's usually the playbook for sports franchise owners. The league can't have cities growing stones all of a sudden and ruining the gravy train for all owners.

I could see it.

no proposed alternatives so time to relocate. makes sense.

[pylon]

As someone alluded to, the only possible explanation is they, being led by KK, knew the actual cost and proposed it anyway, to make getting a cheaper project done a easier pill for the city to swallow. Thus explaining the MS paint rendering and horribly tacky naming of the project and campaign. They honestly had to have known this was over a decade away from estimate and a frikking BILLION dollars over budget.

Or:

KK is incredibly unqualified to manage a project of this scope, and is completely inept. I hate to say it. But Nenshi was being kind using the verbiage "Half baked". This entire proposal looks so bad, it is almost falling into "Lol, this had to be an Onion article.....right? Holy crap. It's REAL?!!"

What an embarrassment for the orginization. Love the Flames, but to think they had the gall, to suggest the city foot the majority of the bill for a frikking stadium facility 600 MILLION dollars higher than the new 1.2 billion dollar Cowboys stadium? Yeah. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out of town.

What an utter joke.

[monkeyman]

If a new(newer) building means that much to the Flames, i'm sure there's an ownership group in Arizona that would be more than happy to switch franchise cities with them. Calgary coyotes kind of has a nice ring to it.

[trublmaker]

wow the vitriol

[pylon]

Originally Posted by trublmaker

wow the vitriol

And it's well deserved.

For them to be so absolutely off the mark, and waste years planning this dud, when they could have had a sensible project hosting games already is ridiculous. There are a ton of STH's that kept paying for garbage seasons in the hopes they don't lose their rights when the new building opens.

And amen to the "Only made the playoffs 6 times in 20 years." Comment above. You'd think they think their the New York Yankees or New England Patriots. Maybe if you put a decent product on the ice, and won something once in a while, you would be taken a little more serious.

I guess the arrogance of the team thinking this could even be remotely feasable is what bugs me the most. If they were so clueless they were this far off budget and build time, it's almost worse.

[Northendzone]

I am somewhat surprised at the anti KK sentiment here.

I can't imagine that he alone made a decision to purposely mislead people or put out a low bal offer.

To me the flames should have worked all this out with the city first so the flames and the city could at least be on the same page with a proposal and look like a team rather than the bickerson's.

But what do I know as I don't manage such large scale projects.

[Hockeyguy15]

Regardless of if a rink is going there or not I wouldn't mind seeing the area cleaned up and that bow/crowchild area redone.

[Joborule]

This is good since now the arena should go north of the Stampede lands where it should be.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by GGG

For anyone who thinks the flames proposal had an acceptable level of detail should read the city report. That is what a DBM level proposal should look like.

Seriously.

It only cost the city $375,000 to generate this report. KK wouldn't even give that much to provide a proposal that had any semblance of detail.

Or maybe he did, and hoped that if he said "world class" enough times, we wouldn't do our own due diligence and be on the hook for 1.5B.

[saillias]

Kenny is probably bewildered because that kinda sales pitch is exactly how the NHL got in bed with SAP

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

I am somewhat surprised at the anti KK sentiment here.

I can't imagine that he alone made a decision to purposely mislead people or put out a low bal offer.

To me the flames should have worked all this out with the city first so the flames and the city could at least be on the same page with a proposal and look like a team rather than the bickerson's.

But what do I know as I don't manage such large scale projects.

Why would you be surprised? He stepped back from other aspects of CSEC to basically spearhead this and what he delivered was a massive flop. Then he had the gall to claim there was no alternative plan, which either speaks to arrogance or incompetence.

He opened himself up for this.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Seriously.

It only cost the city $375,000 to generate this report. KK wouldn't even give that much to provide a proposal that had any semblance of detail.

Or maybe he did, and hoped that if he said "world class" enough times, we wouldn't do our own due diligence and be on the hook for 1.5B.

Well, it does include a stadium, arena and a field house. what could go wrong when you design it to include everything you could think of(plus some stuff you had to include, damn city and it's citizens) all rolled into one?

[Bezer]

What an absolute freaking joke..

I am okay with a ticket tax and I am in the minority I am sure, but I would be okay with a "reasonable" amount or tax payer money BUT 1.2 to 1.4 BILLION.. GET THE EFF OUTTA HERE...

Ken King or whoever came up with this load garbage should lose their job and run outta town.

[Sgrath]

Didn't see it posted in the thread, so here are the full gory details if you are so inclined to read
http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...a&itemid=43230

Project was an interesting concept but the wrong thing in the wrong place.

[nik-]

Additionally, I'm a little surprised at the amount of people here who seemed to be shocked by how out of whack that number is compared to the initial Flames number.

Posters here were guessing in the ballpark of that final tally a ways back

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

If they choose to play this card (bahahah ya right) and they leave, I would be proud to be from a city that stood up to them.

I love the Flames, but if it comes down to that we need to realize our priorities.

For sure. I'd watch the Flames if they were in Calgary or Halifax.

But there's no question that is the playbook. It's well documented, with the last victim being the football team that moved to LA. In Edmonton, Daryl Katz tipped off the media and went scoping out Hamilton and Seattle in order to get his way. And why wouldn't he? Would you leave half a billion on the table if you could leverage it from the public? Nobody would. Neither will Murray Edwards.

[nik-]

If the Flames left, I'd just be done with the NHL most likely. I don't watch non-Flames games as much as I used to and I couldn't support a league that would probably be assisting the Flames in their relocation threat game plan.

I'd probably just turn into a full time soccer nerd.

[rage2]

Anyone find it odd that while the city pretty much rants about CalgaryNEXT in the entire report, they go and recommend that a new arena be built on or near Stampede grounds out of nowhere?

Also, the city is good at making readers think what the city wants you to think. When has a project costing plan included interest in the final cost? Look at some of the big proposals that got pushed through, the library or the airport tunnel, they talk about financing costs but it's never included in the total expenditure. It's almost like the city tried to inflate the cost as much as possible to scare off readers immediately.

Not the first time the city did something like this in an analysis. They did the same shell game in the airport tunnel analysis. I picked it apart years ago:

http://forums.beyond.ca/st2/more-air...61#post4277761

Disclaimer: While I like the location of CalgaryNEXT, I do not like how much public contribution is going into it even prior to this report, which is a bit of city BS imo.